Can you legally sell P80 frames?

[TacticalSpeed]

I am getting a lot of conflicting information on whether or not it is legal to for a private citizen to sell drilled P80 frames.
To be clear, this is regarding frames that have already been drilled & everything, but have zero parts installed. It would still be a bare frame.

Is it legal to sell them or must they be engraved 1st? Anyone have a link to concrete info from our lovely government?

[Rural Ruger]

Anecdotally, they come to a buyer at the 80% point and any action that goes beyond that would put them over the line. So an untouched 80% pistol frame would be legal to sell but a modified one would not w/o a transfer.

But I don't have a link to anything other than forums, etc. Just what I've heard from multiple sources

[Emptymag]

This EXACT question was asked/answered a day or two ago.

Gimme a sec - I'll find it...

Here you go.
https://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=403589

[gunsrfun1]

Yeah, I am the one who asked that exact question, due to Tactical Speed wanting to sell some drilled frames face-to-face. I happened to see the ad and notified him that he couldn't do it without an FFL transfer. TS is an honest guy so he is trying to keep it legal. As I had told him, you cannot sell an 80% frame without an FFL transfer once you have done ANYTHING to it. And without a S/N, it will be really hard to do anyway. My original post was to confirm I had given him the correct info (which I had.)

I later consulted with a friend of mine who is a very knowledgeable FFL, who confirmed this. Here are some excerpts from the Form 4473 instructions:

Questions 1-6. Firearm(s) Description: These blocks must be completed with the firearm(s) information. All firearms manufactured or made after 1968 by Federal firearms licensees should be marked with a licensee*s serial number. Should you acquire a firearm that is legally not marked with a serial number (i.e., certain pre-1968 firearms); you may answer question 3 with *NSN* (No Serial Number), *N/A* or *None.* Unless already properly marked by another licensee, licensees who take a privately made firearm (PMF) into inventory are required to mark the PMF with an individual serial number that begins with the FFL*s abbreviated license number, which is the first three and last five digits, as a prefix to a unique identification number, followed by a hyphen, e.g., 12345678-unique identification number.

Question 8. Private Party Transfer: Check this box if the licensee is facilitating the sale or transfer of a firearm between private unlicensed individuals in accordance with ATF Procedure 2020-2, or subsequent update. This will assist the licensee by documenting which transaction records correspond with private party transfers, and why there may be no corresponding A&D entries when the transfer did not proceed because it was denied, delayed, or cancelled. If the proposed transfer involves a PMF, the PMF must first be taken into inventory and properly marked with a licensee*s serial number.

Bottom line:
1) Can only sell it via FFL transfer, since it's considered a firearm once you do anything to it.

2) Can't do the FFL transfer without a S/N on the frame, since it was made after 1968.

Apparently ATF does allow you to put a S/N on the frame yourself, but sounds like it's way more trouble than it's worth: See ATF Form 1 (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/fo...53201/download).

[Delkal]

I get the part where buying and completing an 80% lower for yourself has some advantages (assuming you don't buy it online with a credit card!). But I would never buy anyone else's build since legal or not it has the potential to be a big hassle and you are guessing about quality. Then you need to add in the fact that most FFLs would not touch a transfer like this

And why? Unless you are a prohibited person it is easier to just buy a frame for a legit manufacturer and it will be cheaper. I assume this is for a glock and you can buy a PSA dagger frame for $60 and have no hassles. Or you can buy a $100 80% lower (and add more for the jigs) to put it together and try and sell it? This doesn't make sense if it has to go thru an FFL. Same with 80% AR lowers vs a $40 Anderson lower.

[TacticalSpeed]

Yeah, I am the one who asked that exact question, due to Tactical Speed wanting to sell some drilled frames face-to-face. I happened to see the ad and notified him that he couldn't do it without an FFL transfer. TS is an honest guy so he is trying to keep it legal. As I had told him, you cannot sell an 80% frame without an FFL transfer once you have done ANYTHING to it. And without a S/N, it will be really hard to do anyway. My original post was to confirm I had given him the correct info (which I had.)

I later consulted with a friend of mine who is a very knowledgeable FFL, who confirmed this. Here are some excerpts from the Form 4473 instructions:

Questions 1-6. Firearm(s) Description: These blocks must be completed with the firearm(s) information. All firearms manufactured or made after 1968 by Federal firearms licensees should be marked with a licensee*s serial number. Should you acquire a firearm that is legally not marked with a serial number (i.e., certain pre-1968 firearms); you may answer question 3 with *NSN* (No Serial Number), *N/A* or *None.* Unless already properly marked by another licensee, licensees who take a privately made firearm (PMF) into inventory are required to mark the PMF with an individual serial number that begins with the FFL*s abbreviated license number, which is the first three and last five digits, as a prefix to a unique identification number, followed by a hyphen, e.g., 12345678-unique identification number.

Question 8. Private Party Transfer: Check this box if the licensee is facilitating the sale or transfer of a firearm between private unlicensed individuals in accordance with ATF Procedure 2020-2, or subsequent update. This will assist the licensee by documenting which transaction records correspond with private party transfers, and why there may be no corresponding A&D entries when the transfer did not proceed because it was denied, delayed, or cancelled. If the proposed transfer involves a PMF, the PMF must first be taken into inventory and properly marked with a licensee*s serial number.

Bottom line:
1) Can only sell it via FFL transfer, since it's considered a firearm once you do anything to it.

2) Can't do the FFL transfer without a S/N on the frame, since it was made after 1968.

Apparently ATF does allow you to put a S/N on the frame yourself, but sounds like it's way more trouble than it's worth: See ATF Form 1 (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/fo...53201/download).

Appreciate the post. I'll probably end up just destroying them unless the rules change which I doubt they will

[Emptymag]

^^^ I've always had a similar view (as Delkal), but apparently some people prefer the shape of grip over a Glock, and/or they "just like building from scratch".

[Delkal]

Appreciate the post. I'll probably end up just destroying them unless the rules change which I doubt they will

I wouldn't destroy them. Keep them and shoot them. And if you have any kids gift them one when they are responsible enough. But completing a bunch of 80% receivers then later trying to sell them (even legally) is a big risk you shouldn't be taking.

[GunLawyer001]

Not so simple. What's the barrel length on a stripped frame? Check the PA definition of "firearm". Check the Federal definition. Avoid crossing state lines, or dealing with non-FFL residents of other states. Perhaps most importantly, don't engage in the business of making firearms for resale (whatever ATFE says that means this week), or dealing in firearms, without an FFL.

I would not destroy drilled stripped frames like those being discussed.

[TacticalSpeed]

I wouldn't destroy them. Keep them and shoot them. And if you have any kids gift them one when they are responsible enough. But completing a bunch of 80% receivers then later trying to sell them (even legally) is a big risk you shouldn't be taking.

Glock grip angle just isn't for me that's why I'm not going to do anything with them. No kids

These are just bear frames at this point there's nothing to shoot I'm not going to build them again.