Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.

    Besides a FFL 03, other FFL's must operate as a "For Profit" business to get and keep their FFL, however the ATF didn't really care if you transferred 10 guns a year or 1,000 guns a month, you were basically treated the same.

    Cliff Note of the below 100+ page ATF document that was released yesterday: "FFL's must operate as For-Profit and we are going to verify it."

    https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regula...earms/download

    SUMMARY: The Department of Justice (“Department”) proposes amending Bureau of
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (“ATF”) regulations to implement the
    provisions of the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act (“BSCA”), effective June 25, 2022,
    that broaden the definition of when a person is considered “engaged in the business” as a
    dealer in firearms other than a gunsmith or pawnbroker. This proposed rule incorporates
    the BSCA’s definition of “predominantly earn a profit,” creates a stand-alone definition
    of “terrorism,” and amends the definitions of “principal objective of livelihood and
    profit” and “engaged in the business” to ensure each conforms with the BSCA’s statutory
    changes and can be relied upon by the public. The proposed rule also clarifies what it
    means for a person to be “engaged in the business” of dealing in firearms, and to have the
    intent to “predominantly earn a profit” from the sale or disposition of firearms. In
    addition, it clarifies the term “dealer,” including how that term applies to auctioneers, and
    defines the term “responsible person.” These proposed changes would assist persons in
    -2-
    understanding when they are required to have a license to deal in firearms. Consistent
    with the Gun Control Act (“GCA”) and existing regulations, the proposed rule also
    defines the term “personal collection” to clarify when persons are not “engaged in the
    business” because they make only occasional sales to enhance a personal collection, or
    for a hobby, or if the firearms they sell are all or part of a personal collection. This
    proposed rule further addresses the lawful ways in which former licensees, and
    responsible persons acting on behalf of such licensees, may liquidate business inventory
    upon revocation or other termination of their license. Finally, the proposed rule clarifies
    that a licensee transferring a firearm to another licensee must do so by following the
    verification and recordkeeping procedures in 27 CFR 478.94 and Subpart H of title 27
    CFR, part 478, rather than by using a Firearms Transaction Record, ATF Form 4473
    (“Form 4473”).
    Washington County Machine Guns & Tactical Range -- CMP Affiliated Club -- FFL 07 / FFL 10 / FEL 20 / SOT 02 / ITAR
    Largest MG Rental Business on the entire East Coast. M2HB, M9 Flamethrower, M67 Grenades, M240 Bravo, M249 SAW, M1919, RPD, M60, Bowling Ball Mortar.
    Now offering High-Explosive Classes (Open to the Public)

  2. #2
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    USN Retired, Pennsylvania
    (Monroe County)
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    Default Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.

    On the flip side if you're moving guns at a flea market and making money you need a FFL.
    Owner Trigger Time LLc 01 FFL/NFA Saylorsburg, PA. Sales/Service/Transfers/Training
    NRA CRSO/Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun inst. BSA Rifle/Shotgun Merit badge counselor. US Navy Marksmanship Team Staff

  3. #3
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    Berks County, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosco the Iroc View Post
    On the flip side if you're moving guns at a flea market and making money you need a FFL.
    Good point. On a national forum I frequent, members were saying that individuals selling guns at gun shows in Texas without an FFL was legal, because 'private' sales in Texas don't require a BGC. I mentioned that the idea of having a table at a gun show to sell guns sure looks like you're in business to sell guns. They did not see it that way. I would think ATF would be all over that.

  4. #4
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    Langhorne, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.

    Quote Originally Posted by esh21167 View Post
    Good point. On a national forum I frequent, members were saying that individuals selling guns at gun shows in Texas without an FFL was legal, because 'private' sales in Texas don't require a BGC. I mentioned that the idea of having a table at a gun show to sell guns sure looks like you're in business to sell guns. They did not see it that way. I would think ATF would be all over that.
    It depends, it's not unreasonable to rent a table at a gun show if you're trying to liquidate some or all of your collection. It's probably the easiest way to do it. Now if you have a table full of NIB modern guns for sale and multiples of the same gun, that's likely a different story. This actually would be a good basis for a lawsuit attempting to make it easier for the average guy to get a 01 FFL. If the ATF says you need one to sell your personal collection at a gun show but won't issue you one it's pretty damn hard to comply.

  5. #5
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    Feb 2008
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    Between a rock and a hard place, Pennsylvania
    (York County)
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    Default Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.

    Quote Originally Posted by esh21167 View Post
    Good point. On a national forum I frequent, members were saying that individuals selling guns at gun shows in Texas without an FFL was legal, because 'private' sales in Texas don't require a BGC. I mentioned that the idea of having a table at a gun show to sell guns sure looks like you're in business to sell guns. They did not see it that way. I would think ATF would be all over that.
    At one of our local flea markets we have this one guy who has set up a space to sell long guns for 20+ years. No FFL and no handguns so in his mind there is no issue to private sell. Normally I would not care but I can still remember back in 2008 he was pontificating about how Obama and his progressive ideas were the best thing for the country. I just passively glance over his goods and move on, nothing of interest and he was always overpriced on what he had. There is part of me that would hope that this jackass would feel the full force of the ATF and the *big government* he loves so much, but in twenty years it has not happened.

  6. #6
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    Upper Gwynedd, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.


  7. #7
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    Berks County, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.

    Quote Originally Posted by mak0 View Post
    It depends, it's not unreasonable to rent a table at a gun show if you're trying to liquidate some or all of your collection. It's probably the easiest way to do it. Now if you have a table full of NIB modern guns for sale and multiples of the same gun, that's likely a different story. This actually would be a good basis for a lawsuit attempting to make it easier for the average guy to get a 01 FFL. If the ATF says you need one to sell your personal collection at a gun show but won't issue you one it's pretty damn hard to comply.
    Quote Originally Posted by egon12 View Post
    At one of our local flea markets we have this one guy who has set up a space to sell long guns for 20+ years. No FFL and no handguns so in his mind there is no issue to private sell. Normally I would not care but I can still remember back in 2008 he was pontificating about how Obama and his progressive ideas were the best thing for the country. I just passively glance over his goods and move on, nothing of interest and he was always overpriced on what he had. There is part of me that would hope that this jackass would feel the full force of the ATF and the *big government* he loves so much, but in twenty years it has not happened.
    I can see why the first scenario might not fall within the definition of 'being in business' if it's a one or two time event. The second one though, IDK. If he's there regularly for 20 years, that seems close to 'being in business.' I wouldn't want to be the test case in either of those situations.

    Grateful for POOFA classifieds.

  8. #8
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    (Susquehanna County)
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    Default Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.

    The important part of all this manure is the rule is NOT in place yet and it is open for public comment!
    Here's the Docket info

    DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
    27 CFR Part 478
    Docket No. ATF 2022R-17;
    AG Order No. RIN 1140-AA58
    Definition of *Engaged in the Business* as a Dealer in Firearms
    AGENCY: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, Department

    You'll need the DOCkET NUMBER to find it and make your own comment of Regulations.gov.

    See "BREAKING: DOJ to Update Definition of *Engaged in the Business* as a Firearms Dealer
    by NEWS WIRE on AUGUST 31, 202
    on https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/b...rearms-dealer/

    And fer cryin' out loud make your comments!


    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities".

  9. #9
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    SWPA, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.

    Like the public comments matter at all. These tyrants will do whatever they want until they start facing real consequences for their disgusting behavior.

    That said I can't find it on the federal register site. If you have a link, please post it.
    F*#K THE ATF

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Apolacon Township, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.

    Quote Originally Posted by KPShooting View Post
    Like the public comments matter at all. These tyrants will do whatever they want until they start facing real consequences for their disgusting behavior.

    That said I can't find it on the federal register site. If you have a link, please post it.
    Then don't comment and don't resist and take it in the ass whenever they want to give it to you!

    I didn't find it on regulations.gov either so it might show up after the holiday. here's the instructions for filing a comment

    ADDRESSES: You may submit comments, identified by docket number ATF 2022R-17,
    by either of the following methods*
    * Federal eRulemaking Portal: www.regulations.gov. Follow the instructions for
    submitting comments.
    -3-
    * Mail: Helen Koppe, Mail Stop 6N-518, Office of Regulatory Affairs,
    Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and
    Explosives, 99 New York Ave. NE, Washington DC 20226;
    ATTN: ATF 2022R-17.
    Instructions: All submissions received must include the agency name and docket number


    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities".

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