ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.

[TSimonetti]

Sorry to have confused you. You complain about the vagueness of the ATF ruling not being specific enough. However, you define the 2A as being all inclusive and as vague as you could possibly ever want it to be because somehow you believe that selling hundreds of firearms a year and dealing without a license is a right. This redefinition does not bar someone from owning or possessing a firearm. Nor does it bar anyone from obtaining one. I*m actually a bit shocked that some people cannot separate selling from bearing arms. That is unless you can provide any amendment in founding documents that states no license shall be required to sell arms.

Is that low bar for the ATF now? The fact that people can still own and possess and buy a gun means these regs are just a ok? Nothing to see here?

The 9th Amendment outlines that just because there is nothing in the Bill of Rights stating that private gun sales are allowed, it cannot be a reason to forbid them at the federal level.

Doesn't the fact that you seem compelled to bring up the most extreme cases of private sales hurt your argument? Who says they are only targeting people that sell hundreds of guns per year? It seems to me that moving forward, anyone who shows up at a gun show with even a few guns and a table is making themselves an open target for an investigation, especially after the ATF opens up their snitch hotline for people to call and report these folks.

If the whole reason for this is to firm up universal background checks, and if the ATF did not want this to be as vindictive and capricious as possible, then why did they not have a carve-out that allows these private sellers to go thru any FFL when selling? That would accomplish background checks for all sales if the unlicensed "dealer" ie collector wanted to comply with any possible changing societal norms.

[Marines55]

I'm well aware of the propaganda surrounding the new regs. Of course in order to believe what you are saying, you have to believe that the ATF is going to be guided by some sort of limiting principles, the same sort of limiting principles that you have outlined. But in fact, there is nothing in their history that shows this will be the case. The entire incentive structure of these agencies is guided by mission creep. Recognition, promotions, reputation, political points, funding etc will not revolve around non-prosecutions. What are they going to do when all the low hanging flipper fruit disappears? Are they going to stop prosecuting under this new regulation? Of course not. Flippers are the target now, but the language says what it says. It's a big net, and that was by design. You can crow all you want about what this is intended to target, but in the end, granting moral authority to the ATF while demonizing the "flippers" is playing right into their divide and conquer strategy. When the EPA was formed 50 years ago, nobody thought they were going to regulate cow farts and ceiling fans and regulate gasoline vehicles out of existence, but here we are. Likewise, if this is not the end of private sales and perhaps gun collecting in general, it's certainly the beginning of the end.

Did you read the redefinition? It pretty clearly outlines what *being in the business* of selling firearms is. I know many non licensed sellers that fit the definition of being in business. I*m not sure if you know, but being an unlicensed gun dealer has been illegal for a very long time now. That being said, we all know that in order to bring a case against someone they will have to prove a pattern. The ATF is to going to hammer someone over two or three guns. They are going to hammer the guys selling hundreds of guns that are set up at shows several weekends each month. That is what this is geared to do. It sounds as though you are really worried about something that shouldn*t apply to you. However, if you are indeed one of these guys selling hundreds of guns each year without a license*.then yes, this would apply to you and you should worry a little bit.

Everybody wants to be a gun dealer*.until you have to do gun dealer shit. Then, when people figure out how hard it is to be a dealer*..they are no longer interested in doing it the right way. As stated before, nothing in this redefinition says you cannot sell your own collection. Nothing bars people from buying, owning, or possessing firearms.

I*m not anti-gun but i do understand that some people think that anyone not lock stepping with their interpretation of the 2A, is considered by them *anti-gun*. I also understand that there are some tin foil hat wearing folks that believe a background check is a bad thing. I get it. However, no one has yet to prove that anything in this redefinition is anti-2A. And if you think that the ATF prosecuting dealers operating without a license is something new*then you need to educate yourself a little more on the subject.

[Marines55]

Is that low bar for the ATF now? The fact that people can still own and possess and buy a gun means these regs are just a ok? Nothing to see here?

The 9th Amendment outlines that just because there is nothing in the Bill of Rights stating that private gun sales are allowed, it cannot be a reason to forbid them at the federal level.

Doesn't the fact that you seem compelled to bring up the most extreme cases of private sales hurt your argument? Who says they are only targeting people that sell hundreds of guns per year? It seems to me that moving forward, anyone who shows up at a gun show with even a few guns and a table is making themselves an open target for an investigation, especially after the ATF opens up their snitch hotline for people to call and report these folks.

If the whole reason for this is to firm up universal background checks, and if the ATF did not want this to be as vindictive and capricious as possible, then why did they not have a carve-out that allows these private sellers to go thru any FFL when selling? That would accomplish background checks for all sales if the unlicensed "dealer" ie collector wanted to comply with any possible changing societal norms.

The reason they didnt outline the background check issue is because many people would cry and bitch about the ATF coming for their guns, and infringing on their rights. Kind of sounds as though you are talking in circles and are defeating your own argument. To each their own. Good luck with your fear mongering.

[bogey1]

A friend use to buy 8 M1 garands at a time from the cmp, and sell them at shows. 80 in all over a ten year period.
He was an FFL at one time but gave it up.

[TSimonetti]

The reason they didnt outline the background check issue is because many people would cry and bitch about the ATF coming for their guns, and infringing on their rights. Kind of sounds as though you are talking in circles and are defeating your own argument. To each their own. Good luck with your fear mongering.

The infringing of rights ship already sailed long ago.

If you and I are young and fortunate enough, perhaps we can revisit this issue a decade or so from now, and see if I was fearmongering or not. Or maybe our children or grandchildren will marvel over the end of gun violence because of this new reg. As for now, I will simply note that I am willing to accept the fact that this new edict just might not be as horrible as I fear, but alternately are you willing to accept that there may be some very bad unintended consequences of this that you do not currently see coming?

[TSimonetti]

It sounds as though you are really worried about something that shouldn*t apply to you. However, if you are indeed one of these guys selling hundreds of guns each year without a license*.then yes, this would apply to you and you should worry a little bit.

Everybody wants to be a gun dealer*.until you have to do gun dealer shit. Then, when people figure out how hard it is to be a dealer*..they are no longer interested in doing it the right way. As stated before, nothing in this redefinition says you cannot sell your own collection. Nothing bars people from buying, owning, or possessing firearms.

I*m not anti-gun but i do understand that some people think that anyone not lock stepping with their interpretation of the 2A, is considered by them *anti-gun*. I also understand that there are some tin foil hat wearing folks that believe a background check is a bad thing. I get it. However, no one has yet to prove that anything in this redefinition is anti-2A. And if you think that the ATF prosecuting dealers operating without a license is something new*then you need to educate yourself a little more on the subject.

No I don't want to be a gun dealer, and don't consider myself a dealer. I've never set up at a gun show to sell any guns. But just to be clear, do you think that a gun collector should be able to rent a table at a gun show and sell part of their collection, and then buy more guns at a later date as the feeling strikes them? Or are ALL these folks suddenly "unlicensed dealers" now? What is your criteria? number of guns? type of guns? time frame between sales and re-stock? All of the above? And do you think that at some point in the future, your feelings on this might be vastly different than an ATF agent in the field conducting an investigation?

Sure, go after the serial flippers who have been violating the laws against unlicensed dealing for a long time, but they are going to have to convince me to have trust in them to not attack normal Americans who are just exercising a little freedom just like we have been doing for Centuries. They have to earn my trust here. I'm not just going to give it to them because they certainly don't deserve it yet based on their history.

[esh21167]

Sorry to have confused you. You complain about the vagueness of the ATF ruling not being specific enough. However, you define the 2A as being all inclusive and as vague as you could possibly ever want it to be because somehow you believe that selling hundreds of firearms a year and dealing without a license is a right. This redefinition does not bar someone from owning or possessing a firearm. Nor does it bar anyone from obtaining one. I*m actually a bit shocked that some people cannot separate selling from bearing arms. That is unless you can provide any amendment in founding documents that states no license shall be required to sell arms.

Can we conclude that you are of the 'if the right is not specifically enumerated, it does not exist' philosophy?

Just because a 'law' has been a 'law' for a long time does not make it correct or moral.

[chewsAside]

I wonder how this affects the criminal element ?
Oh that's right criminals don't follow the law .
.................................................. ..........................................
Weird huh how it seems like criminals get more 2nd amendment freedoms than law abiding citizens do .
.................................................. ..........................................
No background checks , full auto , short barrel , conceal carry .
Revolving door policy when caught doing said things
.................................................. .........................................
Why it's almost like the Fed is in bed with em

[DonBiase]

Can we conclude that you are of the 'if the right is not specifically enumerated, it does not exist' philosophy?

Just because a 'law' has been a 'law' for a long time does not make it correct or moral.

I believe It's the Other Way Round!

[buckengr]

The ability to hold any gun owner at risk of legal jeopardy is the goal of every single one of these rulemaking efforts that introduce new ambiguity. Sure, they might not target you for selling one firearm. But now they can. And if they have some other reason to screw you, make no mistake, they will.

Keep in mind, there is no exception in the rule for someone who sells a firearm to an FFL or who sells a firearm to another person via an FFL. Even if that buyer goes through a background check at an FFL, if you made a profit, or would have liked to have made a profit and you don't have an FFL yourself, this seems to give them the legal latitude to try to prosecute you.

If your initials happened to be DJT, for sure you'd be catching that charge. Hunter Biden? Never gonna happen. Support Donald? Charges for you. Build back better sign in your yard? No problemo.

Selective enforcement is the standard operating procedure these days. If you don't realize that, wake up!