ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.

[esh21167]

Before you get all ruffed up and start thumping your chest, this new redefinition is aimed at those guys (and yes, we all see them at shows) that are selling their *private collection* of firearms at multiple shows throughout the year*..year after year after year. They always have signs on their tables marked *private collection* and never seem to run out of guns to sell. I can name off several of these guys that maintain a business presence at shows, but skirt having an FFL to do background checks. It should also be noted that you can still be considered a dealer operating without a license even if you are selling to a licensed dealer, or are transferring firearms through a dealer. This isn*t aimed at any person selling a couple firearms a year. It is solely aimed at those guys that go to flea markets every weekend, gun shops through the week, auctions, etc. to purchase firearms at a low value and then resell them. It is also aimed at the Amish community gun dealers that send one person with an ID, to shows or dealers to purchase firearms and then resell them to their community without doing background checks.

True, but the vague definition of 'in business' can be interpreted at any time to target others if desired. Are there resources to do that? Not currently, but the language seems to allow that.

[Marines55]

True, but the vague definition of 'in business' can be interpreted at any time to target others if desired. Are there resources to do that? Not currently, but the language seems to allow that.

Well, if you aren*t flipping guns for profit time and again*then you have nothing to worry about. We all know there are local guys dealing guns without a license. This isn*t anything new. They are just simply too lazy to get an actual license, report taxes, etc. if you want to be a dealer*then do it right. If you dont want to do it right*then dont do it. Yes the verbiage is vague*.but that isn*t anything new either. This isn*t a violation of any 2A right, it*s not a violation of anything at all.

[steve_010]

Well, if you aren*t flipping guns for profit time and again*then you have nothing to worry about. We all know there are local guys dealing guns without a license. This isn*t anything new. They are just simply too lazy to get an actual license, report taxes, etc. if you want to be a dealer*then do it right. If you dont want to do it right*then dont do it. Yes the verbiage is vague*.but that isn*t anything new either. This isn*t a violation of any 2A right, it*s not a violation of anything at all.

Funny how this was "doing it right" for a long time before the ATF was created to infringe on our rights.

[Marines55]

Funny how this was "doing it right" for a long time before the ATF was created to infringe on our rights.

What right is being infringed upon?

[steve_010]

What right is being infringed upon?

Every gun law is an infringement.

[Delkal]

"Similarly, persons who
liquidate (without restocking) all or part
of their personal collection are not
considered to be engaged in the
business"

Without restocking? That seems like a big deal to me. So once I start selling off part of my collection, I can't buy any more to replace them? Sounds like they either don't know what collecting means or else they are trying to end collecting.

You know that is a stretch of logic. I believe you know what restocking means and it doesn't mean you can never buy another firearm once you sell one. It was the previous laws that were vague and this new rules spells it out that you can sell any or all of your private collection at any time without needing an FFL. Just don't be buying dozens of similar firearms then quicklyresell them.

[esh21167]

Funny how this was "doing it right" for a long time before the ATF was created to infringe on our rights.

What right is being infringed upon?

Every gun law is an infringement.

We have a winner.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to steve_010 again.

I'm pretty shocked at the responses from Marines55. The right 'to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed' is not being violated? I guess not because the Constitution doesn't say the right 'to buy and sell arms shall not be infringed.' I'm glad to be enlightened.

It's like everything else.

A person who constantly buys/sells/flips without a license, like multiple guns weekly/monthly, sure looks like a dealer.

Someone who buys a gun, then sells it within a year for more than they paid for it, is not. But ATF's new language says they may be, since they made a profit.

And the middle area quickly becomes quite gray.

[Marines55]

We have a winner.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to steve_010 again.

I'm pretty shocked at the responses from Marines55. The right 'to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed' is not being violated? I guess not because the Constitution doesn't say the right 'to buy and sell arms shall not be infringed.' I'm glad to be enlightened.

It's like everything else.

A person who constantly buys/sells/flips without a license, like multiple guns weekly/monthly, sure looks like a dealer.

Someone who buys a gun, then sells it within a year for more than they paid for it, is not. But ATF's new language says they may be, since they made a profit.

And the middle area quickly becomes quite gray.

Sorry to have confused you. You complain about the vagueness of the ATF ruling not being specific enough. However, you define the 2A as being all inclusive and as vague as you could possibly ever want it to be because somehow you believe that selling hundreds of firearms a year and dealing without a license is a right. This redefinition does not bar someone from owning or possessing a firearm. Nor does it bar anyone from obtaining one. I*m actually a bit shocked that some people cannot separate selling from bearing arms. That is unless you can provide any amendment in founding documents that states no license shall be required to sell arms.

[TSimonetti]

Before you get all ruffed up and start thumping your chest, this new redefinition is aimed at those guys (and yes, we all see them at shows) that are selling their *private collection* of firearms at multiple shows throughout the year*..year after year after year. They always have signs on their tables marked *private collection* and never seem to run out of guns to sell. I can name off several of these guys that maintain a business presence at shows, but skirt having an FFL to do background checks. It should also be noted that you can still be considered a dealer operating without a license even if you are selling to a licensed dealer, or are transferring firearms through a dealer. This isn*t aimed at any person selling a couple firearms a year. It is solely aimed at those guys that go to flea markets every weekend, gun shops through the week, auctions, etc. to purchase firearms at a low value and then resell them. It is also aimed at the Amish community gun dealers that send one person with an ID, to shows or dealers to purchase firearms and then resell them to their community without doing background checks.

I'm well aware of the propaganda surrounding the new regs. Of course in order to believe what you are saying, you have to believe that the ATF is going to be guided by some sort of limiting principles, the same sort of limiting principles that you have outlined. But in fact, there is nothing in their history that shows this will be the case. The entire incentive structure of these agencies is guided by mission creep. Recognition, promotions, reputation, political points, funding etc will not revolve around non-prosecutions. What are they going to do when all the low hanging flipper fruit disappears? Are they going to stop prosecuting under this new regulation? Of course not. Ok perhaps extreme flippers are the target now, but the language says what it says. It's a big net, and that was by design. You can crow all you want about what this is intended to target, but in the end, granting moral authority to the ATF while demonizing the "flippers" is playing right into their divide and conquer strategy. When the EPA was formed 50 years ago, nobody thought they were going to regulate cow farts and ceiling fans and regulate gasoline vehicles out of existence, but here we are. Likewise, if this is not the end of private sales and perhaps gun collecting in general, it's certainly the beginning of the end.

[TSimonetti]

You know that is a stretch of logic. I believe you know what restocking means and it doesn't mean you can never buy another firearm once you sell one. It was the previous laws that were vague and this new rules spells it out that you can sell any or all of your private collection at any time without needing an FFL. Just don't be buying dozens of similar firearms then quicklyresell them.

What is stretchy about it? The text of the regs say that, not me.

Putting aside the fact that Congress is supposed to make laws, there are several other things about this which are unAmerican and UnConstitutional.

What does quickly mean? What does restocking mean? What does seeking a profit mean? You seem confident that you know, but you don't matter.

It doesn't matter what you or I think it means. It matters what any overzealous prosecutor thinks it means in the future, even after you and I are gone. The wording says nothing about number of firearms or time period between sales. If your motive is profit, then you fall under this umbrella. Do you wish to trust a federal prosecutor with you freedom?. Well it seems that you have to.

Like I said earlier. people can whistle past the graveyard on this issue, but it doesn't make the problems with this go away.