Old Pistol - Hopkins & Allen

[BobFromBucks]

I mentioned a few weeks back that I'm helping a friend sell her husband's guns. He passed away last year. I found one a couple of days ago buried in a desk drawer that the family didn't know about. It's a bit of a relic as near as I can tell. It is a Hopkins and Allen revolver XL8 double action, .32 caliber. This revolver is chambered for the .32 S & W Black Powder cartridge and is not considered safe to use with modern ammunition. As near as I can tell it was manufactured around 1898. The frame and the cylinder are both stamped with serial number 8922. It has factory custom-ordered pearl handles. It's in pretty good shape for an old girl.

Am I correct that since it was manufactured as a black powder pistol, no FFL is needed to facilitate a sale?

I'll check the Internet for value but if anyone has an idea, that would be great. The mechanics are perfect.

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[Delkal]

Just because the original cartridges were made using black powder this is not a muzzle loader so it is considered a firearm. If you can prove it was made in 1898 or before then it is classified as an antique and federal gun laws do not apply. You can sell them without an FFL and even send them to another state.

You will need to check on the Pa laws though. I am sure someone will be along shortly to answer this.

[cdi]

If it uses readily available fixed ammunition I'd use an ffl even if you can document manufacture prior to 1898.
Is it rimfire or centerfire?

[BobFromBucks]

Centerfire and it is dated 1896-1898 on top.

[cdi]

Probably best to use an ffl. .32 centerfire is not hard to find and if I remember correctly the rule says made prior to 1898.
If you need someone, I know a guy.

[raxar]

its probably a moot point. Value and desirability on these is basically nothing.

[tl_3237]

For FEDERAL antique firearms purposes: manufacture dates include 1898; the available fixed ammunition applies to REPLICAs only. State laws may vary.

18 USC §921. Definitions

(a) As used in this chapter-

(16) The term "antique firearm" means-

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or


(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica-

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or


(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

[indianjack]

E mail Marc at this e mail address they sell and ID old guns, will even give you an idea of the value. https://oldguns.net/email/

[BobFromBucks]

E mail Marc at this e mail address they sell and ID old guns, will even give you an idea of the value. https://oldguns.net/email/

Thank you.

[knight0334]

For it to fall under the Antique Firearm thing, you and everybody else(seller, FFL, ATF) has to agree that it was made prior to 1899. If manufacture date is in doubt, it must be transferred as a modern firearm. Even if it is pre-1899, you'll probably have to convince the seller with facts. ...which they may still decide to cover their ass and go the modern firearm route.

There are many experienced FFL's that don't fully understand the Antique Firearm thing.

As for firearms technology - some companies didn't switch to steel rated for smokeless until into the 1900's. H&R is one of them - 1905 or later is smokeless, 1904 and prior is blackpowder cartridge. You don't go by "black powder" or "smokeless", you go by the manufacture date of the gun in question. Then you have to factor in the firearms made after 1898 that use fixed cartridges that don't have ammo specifically chambered for that firearm anymore. A 2023 production .25 or .27 Stevens, or .32Rimfire, etc gun may legally be an "Antique Firearm" since ammo isn't available by normal channels of commerce. ...yeah, a brandnew gun still warm from the milling machine is capable of being an Antique Firearm under the law.

Here are your basic Antique Firearm thresholds:

1. Guns that don't use fixed cartridges (muzzleloaders, cap & ball revolvers, etc)
2. Guns made prior to 1899 that use fixed cartridges
3. Guns made after 1898 that use fixed cartridges, but there is practically no ammo available for the guns

If you put one of those cartridge conversions on a 1851 Navy or some other pre-1899 Antique Firearm - you just manufactured a modern firearm, and that gun is technically a modern firearm for life even if you convert it back. If some ammo manufacturer starts producing .25 Stevens rimfire ammo again, any gun chambered in .25 Stevens rimfire made after 1898 becomes a modern firearm.