John C Garand Matches - Kinda Fuddy?

[jthrelf]

A buddy of mine asked me to join him at a Garand match in which I was initially interested in. When diving into the rules something stuck out to me. The M1 Garand, the greatest battle implement ever devised, and very much a semi-auto, gets neutered in these matches by:

1) forcing a single cartridge load in two of the stages
2) forcing a load of 2 rounds then a full 8 round clip in the other stage

The M1 was never designed to be fielded or operated in this manner. It seems, well, silly... And to my original point - FUDDY.

The rifle has a clip eject feature to unload and show clear. Why force an exact load of only 10 rounds? Load a clip, shoot, ping, load another, shoot twice, clear chamber and eject clip. Simple. All while the range is still hot and you're pointed down range. I don't see the issue.

Instead of just doing it this way, a bunch of doodads are needed to follow the courses of fire - 2 round clips, single load tools, etc.

For those experienced with these matches - what gives?

[imashooter2]

I can*t speak directly to this Garand Match as I*ve never been. That said, at all matches rules are in place to try to provide safety when the competitors can range from expert to idiot.

[Delkal]

I believe you can only load one round at a time in all of the National trophy matches slow fire segments. This includes all of the military matches like camp Perry and is not just the Garand or service rifle matches. In the slow courses you get a minute per shot so you could be standing on the firing line for 10-20 min with a round in the chamber while resting your arms on occasion. That doesn't sound safe and I believe all of the top shooters would still load single rounds even if they could use a magazine.

For the Garand rapid fire courses everyone uses a modified clip that only holds 2 rounds first. After it pings they put in a fully loaded clip with 8 to finish the 10 shots

[oldengineer]

The range rules were more stringent back in 1959 when a busload of all idiot Navy recruits, me included, hit the range at Camp Pendleton to fire the M1 Garand. It was familiarization only, no quals or fails, but I got an OK from my instructor.

[Walleye Hunter]

I don't have any experiences with matches or group shooting events but at trap night at my local range, it's only one shell in the gun at a time. And even then, not until it's your turn to shoot.

[jthrelf]

I believe you can only load one round at a time in all of the National trophy matches slow fire segments. This includes all of the military matches like camp Perry and is not just the Garand or service rifle matches. In the slow courses you get a minute per shot so you could be standing on the firing line for 10-20 min with a round in the chamber while resting your arms on occasion. That doesn't sound safe and I believe all of the top shooters would still load single rounds even if they could use a magazine.

For the Garand rapid fire courses everyone uses a modified clip that only holds 2 rounds first. After it pings they put in a fully loaded clip with 8 to finish the 10 shots

I guess my problem is: an as-issued rifle is required, the CMP was chartered so that people could learn marksmanship for defense of the nation, so why not do it like the battlefield i.e. if you're shooting at an enemy and pause, you don't single load, you maybe put the safety on and then keep your finger off the trigger.

I just don't see a safety issue with operating a rifle as designed

[X Hunter]

There is history in the match that you fired with the M1 Garand, Fuddyness has nothing to do with it.

My grandfather shot in the 1919 Expeditionary Forces rifle matches in Le Mans France, where he won a silver medal and was one of 6 competitors to fire a perfect score in the in the 200yd sitting rapid fire. He fired the Springfield bolt action rifle which holds 5 rounds and can be loaded from a stripper clip. Rapid fire was 5 shots, reload, shoot 5 more. Slow fire was load one shoot one.
When the Garand came to being and held 8 rounds, to keep the course of fire the same, slow fire was load one shoot one. For rapid fire, 2 rounds were crossed in an 8 shot clip and fired first, then the reload was done with an 8 shot clip. Today, there are 2 shot clips available.
The practice continues today for the AR platform where competitors can load 2+8 or 5+5; the reload continues even though there is a 30 round mag for the AR. I would assume that reloading under the time constraint of a rifle match helps to simulate reloading in battle. Slow fire continues to be single load, load one/shoot one.

The 1919 course of fire at Le Mans was

Range Time Shots RF Target Position
300 No Limit 10 A 5 Sitting + 5 Kneeling
500 No Limit 10 B Prone
600 No Limit 10 (2 S.S.) B Prone

Range Time Shots SF Target Position
200 1 min 10 D Sitting or Kneeling from Standing
300 70 sec 10 D Prone from Standing
500 90 sec 10 D Prone

[Noah_Zark]

A buddy of mine asked me to join him at a Garand match in which I was initially interested in. When diving into the rules something stuck out to me. The M1 Garand, the greatest battle implement ever devised, and very much a semi-auto, gets neutered in these matches by:

1) forcing a single cartridge load in two of the stages
2) forcing a load of 2 rounds then a full 8 round clip in the other stage

The M1 was never designed to be fielded or operated in this manner. It seems, well, silly... And to my original point - FUDDY.

The rifle has a clip eject feature to unload and show clear. Why force an exact load of only 10 rounds? Load a clip, shoot, ping, load another, shoot twice, clear chamber and eject clip. Simple. All while the range is still hot and you're pointed down range. I don't see the issue.

Instead of just doing it this way, a bunch of doodads are needed to follow the courses of fire - 2 round clips, single load tools, etc.

For those experienced with these matches - what gives?

Fundamentally matches were historically fired with the M1903 Rifle in 10 rd strings using two 5-rd clips, with some cartridges single loaded and fired. Matches were scored in multiples of 10 shot strings. When the M1 Rifle arrived, the scoring system was kept, and to fire 10 rds rapid one used a standard 8-rd clip and a special 2 rd clip. Single rounds were loaded without a clip b/c the M1 Rifle extractor jumped over the cartridge rim to engage the extraction groove. The M1903 was single loaded to the magazine b/c the Mauser-type controlled feed extractor can't jump the rim.

Essentially, the M1 course of fire was developed as-warranted to "adapt" the M1 to the existing match course of fire. Nothing to do with Fudds, but a lot to do with inflexible, by-the-book military match guys who preferred the M1903 over the M1 for a long time. The story is touched upon in Hatcher's Book of the Springfield, and Book of the Garand.

Noah

[jthrelf]

X Hunter and Noah, I appreciate both of your responses.

[Walleye Hunter]

X Hunter and Noah, I appreciate both of your responses.

What about mine?