Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default VISA / MC pause tracking of gun sales

    .

    Visa, Mastercard Pause Work on Code Aimed at Tracking Gun Purchases


    Plan would track transactions at firearms, ammunition stores

    Payment giants have said code was unlikely to have much impact



    March 9, 2023 at 10:34 AM ESTUpdated onMarch 9, 2023 at 12:22 PM EST

    Visa Inc. and Mastercard Inc. have decided to pause implementing a plan that activists had hoped would track firearm sales and help curb gun violence.

    The payments giants — along with Discover Financial Services — are delaying the work after a series of bills in state legislatures targeted the International Organization for Standardization’s new merchant category code. The MCC was created to be used when processing transactions for gun and ammunition stores.

    Key Speakers At The Clinton Global Initiative Meeting
    Priscilla Sims Brown, chief executive officer of Amalgamated Bank, led the push to implement the new merchant category code.Photographer: Michael Nagle/Bloomberg
    “There are bills advancing in several states related to the use of this new code,” a spokesman for Mastercard said in a statement Thursday. If passed, the proposals would create an “inconsistency” in how the code is applied by merchants and others, he said. “It’s for that reason that we have decided to pause work on the implementation of the firearms-specific MCC.”

    Visa also took a pause because of the “significant confusion and legal uncertainty” the legislative proposals have created, according to a spokesperson.

    Visa and Mastercard have previously said the new system might not have had the impact that gun-control advocates had hoped. That’s because it wouldn’t offer the level of detail needed to show what customers were actually buying — making no distinction between, say, automatic rifles and safety equipment. And many politicians and Second Amendment advocates decried the proposed code as an intrusion on constitutional rights and privacy.

    The major payment networks had previously all agreed they would implement the new code, which would apply to all purchases at gun and ammunition stores. Firearm purchases at other types of retailers wouldn’t be captured.

    “MCCs are one data point that would not provide any insight on specific purchases or resolve larger issues,” the Mastercard spokesman said. “We are committed to working with policymakers and elected officials to contribute to constructive solutions that address the gun violence issue, while respecting important constitutional rights and protections for lawful activities.”

    In a statement, Discover said it’s removing the MCC as well, “to continue alignment and interoperability with the industry.”

    The companies’ previous decision to implement the code drew almost immediate criticism from politicians. In September, two dozen state attorneys general sent a letter to Visa’s then-chief executive officer, Al Kelly, and Mastercard CEO Michael Miebach calling on them to “take immediate action to comport with our consumer protection laws and respect the constitutional rights of all Americans.”

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    Since then, several Republican politicians have filed bills in states including Mississippi and Florida seeking to restrict the code by banning banks and payment processors from using it. Earlier this year, a bill that would “prevent the use of payment card processing systems for surveillance of Second Amendment activity and discriminatory conduct” passed West Virginia’s House and was sent to the state’s Senate.

    ‘Detection Scenarios’
    The push to adopt the new code was led by Amalgamated Bank CEO Priscilla Sims Brown. In November, Brown said banks were developing technology to identify potential mass shooters by creating “detection scenarios” that, if triggered, would prompt banks to file a Suspicious Activity Report to the Treasury Department’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network.

    Banks already file thousands of suspicious activity reports every year as they detect a litany of potential misdeeds by customers. The new code would mean they treat the issue of tracking gun purchases no differently, Brown said last year.

    But gun-rights activists blasted the comparison.

    “SARs are specifically required by law and came about through a considered balancing of public safety and personal privacy,” the attorneys general said in their September letter. “Activists pressured the ISO to adopt this policy as a means of circumventing and undermining the American legislative process. The new merchant category code will chill the exercise of a constitutional right without any concomitant benefit.”
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-gun-purchases
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 ...........

  2. #2
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    Default Re: VISA / MC pause tracking of gun sales

    I don't think this is as big of a deal as it's being made out to be.

    This would just be a merchant category. They already have different merchant categories for gas, groceries, restaurants, retail. And anything you would buy at a gun store would be flagged as gun store. But you could be buying a hat from a gun store, and it would be flagged as a gun store purchase. You earn points from your credit cards based on gas, restaurant, etc. Maybe you could earn bonus points for gun store purchases?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: VISA / MC pause tracking of gun sales

    Quote Originally Posted by JaySmith View Post
    I don't think this is as big of a deal as it's being made out to be.

    This would just be a merchant category. They already have different merchant categories for gas, groceries, restaurants, retail. And anything you would buy at a gun store would be flagged as gun store. But you could be buying a hat from a gun store, and it would be flagged as a gun store purchase. You earn points from your credit cards based on gas, restaurant, etc. Maybe you could earn bonus points for gun store purchases?
    Usual people, with the usual over-reaction to the usual bullshit.

    No surprise...as usual (;

  4. #4
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    Default Re: VISA / MC pause tracking of gun sales

    Quote Originally Posted by JaySmith View Post
    I don't think this is as big of a deal as it's being made out to be.

    This would just be a merchant category. They already have different merchant categories for gas, groceries, restaurants, retail. And anything you would buy at a gun store would be flagged as gun store. But you could be buying a hat from a gun store, and it would be flagged as a gun store purchase. You earn points from your credit cards based on gas, restaurant, etc. Maybe you could earn bonus points for gun store purchases?
    Being the cheap a** that I am, I am opposed to this in part because it takes away the bonus cashback I previously got on gun-related purchases (for Sporting Goods stores). No bank is going to be adding "Guns & Ammo" as a 5% bonus category. As I said in the other thread on this topic, I also think this the category sets the stage for other possible uses going forward. For example, this will make it easier for banks and payment processors to blacklist gun dealers as PayPal did many years ago. We have already seen a number of banks shut down checking accounts for gun dealers. Keeping in line with the bans and tracking of large capacity mags, "assault weapons", etc. I can also envision future legislation using said category like the IRS uses Form 8300, which requires individuals and businesses to report receipt of cash payments over $10k. Perhaps the business - or even the payment processor or bank - will be required to report transactions at gun stores over X dollars. Ultimately, I don't think the policy is the end of the world, but I don't think it's without cause for concern either. They're just chipping away at 2A from every direction now.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: VISA / MC pause tracking of gun sales

    If you don't.think it's a big deal then why are gun control advocates so hot for it?
    We will know it's not a big deal when the anti-gunners think it's no big deal.
    This is just another tool to monitor how people spend their money. First they watch it, then they flag it, then they put you on a list, then they investigate it, then they knock on your door and want to know why this month you spent 130% more on outdoor sports than you did the previous month.
    The Hostler

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    Default Re: VISA / MC pause tracking of gun sales

    .

    yea like the banks would never turn your spending habits over to the ATF



    ATF keeping database of nearly 1-billion records of gun sales
    By Cam Edwards | 4:30 PM on January 31, 2022

    ATF keeping database of nearly 1-billion records of gun sales

    The federal government is prevented by law from establishing or maintaining a database of gun owners, but that’s not stopping the Biden administration from collecting and digitizing millions of firearms transactions conducted by FFLs across the country.

    According to a new story by the Free Beacon’s Adam Kredo, the ATF has informed Congress that it is currently maintaining a database of 920,664,765 firearm purchase records, including 54-million that were gathered just last year. That nugget about last year’s input was originally leaked to Gun Owners of America, according to 2A activist and writer John Crump, who adds that gun rights activists are especially concerned because of a recent push by the ATF to have FFL’s store their finished 4473 forms digitally.

    The ATF has removed the time limit that the FFLs are required to keep the documents on-site, meaning the FFLs can never get rid of a form 4473 once it gets entered into their system except when turning the records over to the ATF. If an FFL turned over the records, then that would mean that those files would become part of the 920 million records currently held by the ATF.

    While the ATF maintains that the database is used to help trace firearms that are recovered, some Republicans on Capitol Hill are concerned about the massive collection of information.

    Rep. Michael Cloud (R., Texas), who led an investigation into the ATF database following a November Free Beacon report that the Biden administration had stockpiled records of more than 54 million gun transactions in 2021, expressed shock at the number of gun records being kept by the federal government. Cloud maintains that the ATF’s database could be exploited by the Biden administration to surveil American gun owners as it pursues new restrictions on firearms.

    “A federal firearm registry is explicitly banned by law. Yet, the Biden administration is again circumventing Congress and enabling the notably corrupt ATF to manage a database of nearly a billion gun transfer records,” Cloud told the Free Beacon. “Under the president’s watch, the ATF has increased surveillance on American gun owners at an abhorrent level. The Biden administration continues to empower criminals and foreign nationals while threatening the rights of law-abiding Americans. It’s shameful and this administration should reconsider its continued attacks on American gun owners.”

    According to the Free Beacon, the ATF says it has already fully digitized more than 850-million firearms transaction records. While the ATF has long had access to paper copies of the records, including those stored on-site at FFLs, the database itself is a more recent development, and one that some 2A groups are taking seriously.

    Aidan Johnston, director of federal affairs for Gun Owners of America, an advocacy group that has closely tracked the ATF’s database, told the Free Beacon that it is becoming clear the Biden administration is on its way to creating a national gun registry.

    “Make no mistake—this is clear evidence that a partial national gun registry exists,” Johnston said. “If the American people don’t stand up for their rights now, Biden’s anti-gun ATF will be able to track gun owners, infringe on our rights, and potentially even confiscate our firearms.”

    Is this a true gun registry? Not really, but if it doesn’t already violate existing law it dances close to the edge of legality. The database can’t track private firearm sales, for instance, which is one reason why gun control activists continue to push to criminalize the activity and why many gun owners are so insistent that it’s none of the government’s business what they do with the guns that are their own private property.

    Home-built guns are also not going to be a part of this database, though the Biden administration is making moves there as well. The ATF is currently finalizing a proposed rule that would require even unfinished gun parts to be serialized and treated as a working firearm under federal law before they could be sold to consumers, though the proposal is going to have a difficult time catching up to the reality that a solid block of aluminum can be turned into a working receiver in just a matter of hours.

    I agree with Johnson of the GOA that the American people need to take this seriously. I would just add that while that absolutely includes contacting your representative and senator and urging them to curb this attempt by the Biden administration to create a backdoor gun registry, it also means opposing tools that can be used to establish an illegal gun registry, like universal background checks. Further, it means supporting efforts to make it easier for responsible Americans to exercise their Second Amendment rights without having to first get permission from their local, state, or federal governments.

    The ATF has long been able to use the de-centralized firearms transaction records to trace individual firearms if needed, and personally, I think the risks of establishing a centralized and computerized database far outweigh the benefit to law enforcement.

    I’m not unsympathetic to the argument that a computerized database can dramatically speed up that process, but that doesn’t change the fact that the ATF is in essence doing what Congress has specifically said is not allowed.

    I just hope that if Republicans do take back the House (and potentially the Senate as well) come November this doesn’t suddenly and inexplicably become an issue that can be left on the back burner. There was a case to be made for serious ATF reform even before the Biden administration decided to turn it into a political vehicle for his gun control agenda, but the need has become even more acute since, and it should be a top priority for the GOP if they take charge of Congress on Election Day.
    https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2...n-sales-n55008
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 ...........

  7. #7
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    Default Re: VISA / MC pause tracking of gun sales

    Quote Originally Posted by JaySmith View Post
    I don't think this is as big of a deal as it's being made out to be.

    This would just be a merchant category. They already have different merchant categories for gas, groceries, restaurants, retail. And anything you would buy at a gun store would be flagged as gun store. But you could be buying a hat from a gun store, and it would be flagged as a gun store purchase. You earn points from your credit cards based on gas, restaurant, etc. Maybe you could earn bonus points for gun store purchases?
    Something about the road to hell being paved with the best intentions comes to mind. After all, when we get that visit or call from law enforcement after being flagged by our bank card for spending thousands of dollars in a gun store, we'll just explain to them why we wanted the 2,400 rounds of ammo and the Daniel Defense Scoped AR15 we just bought last Saturday at Cabelas and they'll definitely understand and take us off their watch lists forever. Or maybe we won't even be informed that we are under investigation and chances are nothing will come of it. Or maybe we'll tell them it's none of their business what we bought and piss them off so that they start looking for ways to punish us. But that will never happen because if we have learned anything it's that we can fully trust the anti gun forces arrayed against us. or maybe we can just lie and say we bought some hats. They just love when they are lied to. Fun times.

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    Default Re: VISA / MC pause tracking of gun sales

    Quote Originally Posted by ray h View Post
    If you don't.think it's a big deal then why are gun control advocates so hot for it?
    We will know it's not a big deal when the anti-gunners think it's no big deal.
    This is just another tool to monitor how people spend their money. First they watch it, then they flag it, then they put you on a list, then they investigate it, then they knock on your door and want to know why this month you spent 130% more on outdoor sports than you did the previous month.
    If they want a list of how I spend money, I'm happy to just give them one. Doesn't bother me.

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    Default Re: VISA / MC pause tracking of gun sales

    Quote Originally Posted by TSimonetti View Post
    Something about the road to hell being paved with the best intentions comes to mind. After all, when we get that visit or call from law enforcement after being flagged by our bank card for spending thousands of dollars in a gun store, we'll just explain to them why we wanted the 2,400 rounds of ammo and the Daniel Defense Scoped AR15 we just bought last Saturday at Cabelas and they'll definitely understand and take us off their watch lists forever. Or maybe we won't even be informed that we are under investigation and chances are nothing will come of it. Or maybe we'll tell them it's none of their business what we bought and piss them off so that they start looking for ways to punish us. But that will never happen because if we have learned anything it's that we can fully trust the anti gun forces arrayed against us. or maybe we can just lie and say we bought some hats. They just love when they are lied to. Fun times.
    You shouldn't explain to them jack shit:

    Do you have a warrant?
    No: then fuck off.
    Yes: I am exercising my 5th amendment right to remain silent.

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    Default Re: VISA / MC pause tracking of gun sales

    "What's the big deal guys? Just get in the boxcar."

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