ATF Just Released Their Brace Ruling

**JaySmith** · February 2nd, 2023, 03:51 PM

For the millions of people that are seeing this bullshit happening, there are also millions of people who own these devices that have no idea what's going on. What happens to them?

**akley88** · February 2nd, 2023, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by JaySmith

For the millions of people that are seeing this bullshit happening, there are also millions of people who own these devices that have no idea what's going on. What happens to them?

they could get in trouble if the rule stands and they get caught in the future

**JaySmith** · February 2nd, 2023, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by akley88

they could get in trouble if the rule stands and they get caught in the future

Sounds like that would stand up in court pretty well. "I bought it from a reputable dealer, it was totally legal, even did the background check. When did it become illegal? How can i be responsible for your arbitrary rule changes? Are you taking my property?"

**Ronin** · February 2nd, 2023, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by JaySmith

For the millions of people that are seeing this bullshit happening, there are also millions of people who own these devices that have no idea what's going on. What happens to them?

I doubt it's even a tenth of that who are actively paying attention.

**GunLawyer001** · February 2nd, 2023, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by JaySmith

Sounds like that would stand up in court pretty well. "I bought it from a reputable dealer, it was totally legal, even did the background check. When did it become illegal? How can i be responsible for your arbitrary rule changes? Are you taking my property?"

Actually, no. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, it usually can't even be mentioned to the jury. The questions are "is this contraband?" and "did you possess it?", not "did you know that it was contraband?"

If you have a pound of Fentanyl illegally, it's not relevant whether you knew that it was illegal, only whether you knew it was Fentanyl. If you know you have this shoulder thing that doesn't go up on the back of your pistol, it's irrelevant whether you kept up with the legal /regulatory changes.

There's some case law regarding local laws, there was a case where some city had a mandatory registration for new residents with certain convictions, and the court held that nobody would have known about that, so she couldn't be convicted of failing to do what nobody told her she had to do; but the Fed courts will strike down local/state laws, they aren't so willing to do that to Federal laws or regs. Do NOT take much comfort from that example, it won't help you with gun issues.

The mantle of righteousness may feel warm and comfy, but it won't do squat for you in a Federal courtroom.

**HKusp 45** · February 2nd, 2023, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by John_Wick

If you're facing 10-20 years, $250k in fines and a nearly certain loss if it goes to trial, your lawyer is almost certainly going to advise you to take a plea deal. You are entitled to ignore that advice though.

It really isn't. We wouldn't be here if it was. The law is open to interpretation and the current interpretation is that braced pistols are SBRs. In order to get around the fact that the ATF can't change the law, the ATF has simply asserted that these have always been SBRs. Until this makes its way through the court system and a final determination is made, which will likely take several years, that's where we are. Even in cases where, instead of a brace, there might be something more ambiguous and perhaps the word of law leans more your way than it does theirs, you're still up against the federal government and every person but your lawyer (and maybe your lawyer too if you have a public defender) is a cog in the same machine. I'm certainly not going to tell anyone how they should proceed, but I don't think anyone's plan should be to wave around a braced pistol and then fight the feds in court because "I'm right and they're wrong." I have had a similar discussion with my wife when she fails to yield to a semi barreling down the on-ramp because she has the right of way. You may be right, but you're still going to lose.

I'm not saying wave it around but the reality is, it is by all definition of our constitution and the lawmaking process it is not a law. They are playing lawmakers when they are not.

**JaySmith** · February 2nd, 2023, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

Actually, no. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, it usually can't even be mentioned to the jury. The questions are "is this contraband?" and "did you possess it?", not "did you know that it was contraband?"

If you have a pound of Fentanyl illegally, it's not relevant whether you knew that it was illegal, only whether you knew it was Fentanyl. If you know you have this shoulder thing that doesn't go up on the back of your pistol, it's irrelevant whether you kept up with the legal /regulatory changes.

There's some case law regarding local laws, there was a case where some city had a mandatory registration for new residents with certain convictions, and the court held that nobody would have known about that, so she couldn't be convicted of failing to do what nobody told her she had to do; but the Fed courts will strike down local/state laws, they aren't so willing to do that to Federal laws or regs. Do NOT take much comfort from that example, it won't help you with gun issues.

The mantle of righteousness may feel warm and comfy, but it won't do squat for you in a Federal courtroom.

I hope trump gets back in office and every single person the ATF scoops up, he pardons.

Originally Posted by Ronin

I doubt it's even a tenth of that who are actively paying attention.

Not sure, with the internet it's pretty easy to see stuff if you're just casually looking. If you're not a frequent user of the internet though, no chance.

Originally Posted by HKusp 45

I'm not saying wave it around but the reality is, it is by all definition of our constitution and the lawmaking process it is not a law. They are playing lawmakers when they are not.

That's why I'm thinking it will get struck down in court. But I didn't tell my wife that when I hit the panic button and told her i need to buy 5 new guns before they're illegal.

**Wildbill990** · February 2nd, 2023, 08:13 PM

[QUOTE=GunLawyer001;4737588]

Originally Posted by Lemanshooter

If you grandfather register your "braced SBR", it becomes a registered SBR. You treat it like any other registered SBR. ATF wants to hear from you if you change the length, but I'm not sure what the statutory basis for that is.

I’m not the ATF but the only time you change caliber/barrel length/OAL and it becomes an issue is if you ever sell/transfer your SBR/SBS. Let’s say you start with a 10.5” 5.56 SBR, perm switch an upper to an 8.5” 300Blk. The new buyer will
Get their form 4 denied most likely since the previous form 1/4 isn’t matching. Outside of that scenario, I don’t see it being an issue.

Also, I wouldn’t rush to file that “free stamp” and this is coming from someone with several stamps. I actually planned to SBR another firearm but since this ruling, I’m gonna see what happens in court. Worst case scenario, I pay $200 and don’t admit that the ATF has the power to change definitions. Best case scenario is braces are stocks and in common use, SBR’s are dropped from the NFA.

**Royinmontco** · February 3rd, 2023, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

Actually, no. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse,

Unless you are in law enforcement. I recall a recent case (not sure if USSC) where the court determined that it wasn't reasonable to expect police to know all the laws, and they couldn't be held responsible for arresting people for "perceived laws" that weren't actually on the books.