Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #341
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
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    Reading, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
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    Default Re: ATF Just Released Their Brace Ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by eyecanshoot View Post
    Wouldn't they have to go thru the tax stamp process?
    i believe it would be done via a form 5 which is tax free.

  2. #342
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Monroeville, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: ATF Just Released Their Brace Ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidH View Post
    Is there anyone, who has has had a Gov agent ask to see proof of your NFA item? Even demand to see the serial # on your weapon? Ok then..

    No of course not. Because they CAN*T! They must have a reason. And mere *suspicion* that a person does not have a stupid tax stamp, is NOT grounds for any stop or search. It*s the same as here in Pa., if a LEO sees an imprint of a concealed weapon on one*s person, they have no legal authority to stop that person & question. Years ago, I was very routinely walking around Filthadelphia, into Wawa*s, Dunkin* Donuts & such, Open Carrying, and hoping to be stopped/questioned illegally. Simply to bring lawsuit against the city & get a $25K payday. This was after 2012 however, & while there were many opportunities, not a single LEO would bite. (Guess the training they received after 2012 actually made a difference) Anyway, same thing here. No local/State/Federal LEO can stop & search for what they think, might be an NFA infraction. They must have prior evidence, OR it be secondary to another infraction. Which, I don*t know about the rest of you* but I don*t around breaking the law willfully* I*ve never been arrested for even a misdemeanor. And I*m simply not worried about it.

    Now, I already went through the SBR phase back in like 2007-08. Then, when I started reloading & actually studied ballistics, I came to find short barrels are DUMB! They very simply castrate any round compared to a 16*+ barrel. Oh yeah*. and I*m not Tacti-Kewl, Mall Ninja, Super-Assassin of DEATH who needs an SBR & suppressor. I*m also not an Apocalypse Prepper who thinks I*m going to be battling AI.. or Democrat Liberals, traveling across the wasteland that used to be our country. So*Yeah. That said, I don*t want these things to go away. Just as I don*t want bumpity-bumps or binary pew-pews to go away, even though I no interest in them. And I*d encourage people to STOP registering anything! Just go about your business. That*s what I do. I do what I like, and I*m not looking to hurt anyone doing it. DC, FBI & *AfT* can suck a-D!
    Ok lol.
    I know more than you do, na na na na na!

  3. #343
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Monroeville, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: ATF Just Released Their Brace Ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by akley88 View Post
    how do you feel about PCC SBRs?
    The only thing worth anything is only what he likes or builds, anything else is irrelevant and useless.
    I know more than you do, na na na na na!

  4. #344
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Bucks, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: ATF Just Released Their Brace Ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidH View Post
    Is there anyone, who has has had a Gov agent ask to see proof of your NFA item? Even demand to see the serial # on your weapon? Ok then..

    No of course not. Because they CAN*T! They must have a reason. And mere *suspicion* that a person does not have a stupid tax stamp, is NOT grounds for any stop or search. It*s the same as here in Pa., if a LEO sees an imprint of a concealed weapon on one*s person, they have no legal authority to stop that person & question. Years ago, I was very routinely walking around Filthadelphia, into Wawa*s, Dunkin* Donuts & such, Open Carrying, and hoping to be stopped/questioned illegally. Simply to bring lawsuit against the city & get a $25K payday. This was after 2012 however, & while there were many opportunities, not a single LEO would bite. (Guess the training they received after 2012 actually made a difference) Anyway, same thing here. No local/State/Federal LEO can stop & search for what they think, might be an NFA infraction. They must have prior evidence, OR it be secondary to another infraction. Which, I don*t know about the rest of you* but I don*t around breaking the law willfully* I*ve never been arrested for even a misdemeanor. And I*m simply not worried about it.

    Now, I already went through the SBR phase back in like 2007-08. Then, when I started reloading & actually studied ballistics, I came to find short barrels are DUMB! They very simply castrate any round compared to a 16*+ barrel. Oh yeah*. and I*m not Tacti-Kewl, Mall Ninja, Super-Assassin of DEATH who needs an SBR & suppressor. I*m also not an Apocalypse Prepper who thinks I*m going to be battling AI.. or Democrat Liberals, traveling across the wasteland that used to be our country. So*Yeah. That said, I don*t want these things to go away. Just as I don*t want bumpity-bumps or binary pew-pews to go away, even though I no interest in them. And I*d encourage people to STOP registering anything! Just go about your business. That*s what I do. I do what I like, and I*m not looking to hurt anyone doing it. DC, FBI & *AfT* can suck a-D!
    I thought for sure that you were going to suggest kidnapping Governor Whitmer, or going into the Capitol.

    You're legally wrong, of course. In PA, any firearm falling under Section 908 is presumed to be illegal, but you can raise an affirmative defense that it's federally registered. Meaning that seeing it is enough for any PA LEO to detain and question you, at least.

    It is a defense under this section for the defendant to prove by a preponderance of evidence that he possessed or dealt with the weapon solely as a curio or in a dramatic performance, or that, with the exception of a bomb, grenade or incendiary device, he complied with the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. 5801 et seq.),
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  5. #345
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    ., Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: ATF Just Released Their Brace Ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    I thought for sure that you were going to suggest kidnapping Governor Whitmer, or going into the Capitol.

    You're legally wrong, of course. In PA, any firearm falling under Section 908 is presumed to be illegal, but you can raise an affirmative defense that it's federally registered. Meaning that seeing it is enough for any PA LEO to detain and question you, at least.

    It is a defense under this section for the defendant to prove by a preponderance of evidence that he possessed or dealt with the weapon solely as a curio or in a dramatic performance, or that, with the exception of a bomb, grenade or incendiary device, he complied with the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. 5801 et seq.),
    contrary to davidh,
    i thought someone who is "printing" could be stopped and asked to produce the card. if it were even just written off as a welfare check or suspicious activity. thought as long as we still had an ltcf requirement for concealing we were ripe for harassment.

    but his paragraph also omits the "threw the pistol on the back seat and got stopped for a [insert driving issue here]" which of course is a valid prompt for an ltcf.
    There is no way to make it out alive...

  6. #346
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    Jul 2016
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    Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania
    (Northampton County)
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    Default Re: ATF Just Released Their Brace Ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshIronshaft View Post
    I'm happy to take a free SBR stamp, but you can't amnesty register it to a trust unless you can prove the firearm was assigned to your trust prior to the rule being finalized. Lame! I want it in my trust damnit.

    Waiting for the courts to fix this nationally will take years. It's been 4 years and bump stocks are only ok in some circuits, still no resolution at the SCOTUS level.

    My advice to people is to comply, or you are taking the chance of being the very unlucky person who happens to get pinched by this (I found two cases of people charged with bump stock possession out of who knows how many who possess them). I really don't want to be sending money to your gofundme for legal fees, so just follow the rules and be involved in the fight for our rights. You're useless to the community, your family, and yourself if you're behind bars.
    The ATF FAQ and form has been corrected to reflect that you only need to prove the gun was assigned to the trust prior to publication of the final rule. The Federal Registry states that the typical time for publication is 3 business days after submission (1/13) and we know the ATF likes to break news on Friday to improve the odds that it slips by unnoticed for a few days, so tomorrow (1/20) seems likely for publication of the final rule. I would get the assignment sheet notarized this evening if that's the direction you're headed. Maybe they take it without notarization, maybe not. If it doesn't publish tomorrow, then you at least until the clock strikes 12am on Monday since the FR doesn't publish on weekends.

  7. #347
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    Berks County, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: ATF Just Released Their Brace Ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by eyecanshoot View Post
    My problem with registering it would be my kids losing the ability to simply take possession of it when I'm gone. I have sentimental kids that will want to hang onto my stuff when I'm gone. My rights shouldn't cost my children anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by John_Wick View Post
    The ATF FAQ and form has been corrected to reflect that you only need to prove the gun was assigned to the trust prior to publication of the final rule. The Federal Registry states that the typical time for publication is 3 business days after submission (1/13) and we know the ATF likes to break news on Friday to improve the odds that it slips by unnoticed for a few days, so tomorrow (1/20) seems likely for publication of the final rule. I would get the assignment sheet notarized this evening if that's the direction you're headed. Maybe they take it without notarization, maybe not. If it doesn't publish tomorrow, then you at least until the clock strikes 12am on Monday since the FR doesn't publish on weekends.
    Not that the entire issue isn't a fiasco, but since ATF has never requested a notarized Schedule A from me for any filing, so if there is no direction in the new 'regulation' that a notarized Schedule A is required, how can they demand it?

  8. #348
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Scenery Hill, Pennsylvania
    (Washington County)
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    Default Re: ATF Just Released Their Brace Ruling

    Hmm maybe I will visit the notary tomorrow. Can't do it today.

    Historically, if you want to sell an SBR, most folks would convert it back to the pistol or rifle it started life as and sell it in that configuration. I think the internet agrees that letting the ATF know you are removing it from the NFA is optional, but a rational idea. I have one firearm in a rifle configuration that was previously an SBR owned by a friend. His info engraved on it doesn't bother me, since it was done as small as legally possible and in a discreet place. You wouldn't notice it unless I pointed it out. He sent a letter to the ATF saying it was being removed from the NFA and nothing ever came back.

    So for ARs and other SBRs with easily swapped components that is what I would recommend if you decide to sell an SBR. For other guns, like my M1927A1 Thompson SBR, I would probably sell that with a Form 4 transfer if I needed to sell it, as swapping the barrel is a pain, I sold the original 16" barrel a long time ago, and someone would probably have the interest in buying an SBR M1927A1.

    I'm surprised no one brought up the restrictions on crossing state lines with an SBR without an approved ATF Form 5320.20. If you cross state lines frequently with your firearm I am told you can fill out the form for a year's period and just say "frequent recreational shooting trips" or something at that destination. I've only used the form for individual trips to Ohio for shooting events. They're no big deal unless you procrastinate/forget.
    In America arms are free merchandise such that anyone who has the capital may make their houses into armories and their gardens into parks of artillery. - Ira Allen, 1796

  9. #349
    Join Date
    Sep 2022
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    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    (Philadelphia County)
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    Default Re: ATF Just Released Their Brace Ruling

    Literally no clue if my "Firearm" ar-15 with a brace is gonna be illegal or not now. And no one seems to have a straight answer.
    Anyway. ATF can go kick rocks.

  10. #350
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Peach Bottom, Pennsylvania
    (Lancaster County)
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    Default Re: ATF Just Released Their Brace Ruling

    "If you're not catching flak, you're not over the target"

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