PICS Related Questions

[johnny_165]

Hi,

For first time in my life I felt need to buy a firearm for security as well as simply shooting at a nearby range. DENIED by PICS.

I'm asking the following questions because I believe I know the answers and looking for confirmation.

1) Is there actually no "classification" for a simple assault conviction as it relates to domestic abuse? Meaning, to determine if domestic abuse or not it is a physical person that is reviewing any available documents/arrests?
2) Why would PICS flag out of state petty CHARGES that involved neither domestic disputes, nor violence? My assumption is if PICS cannot determine what in the world a charge is related to the person behind the monitor just considers it a flag and puts in must review more. What happened to convictions being what is relevant, or to reword, why are they reviewing arrest records in the first place?
3) Why do they call it an INSTANT check when it is not instant at all? It appears to be an INSTANT initiation of an FBI background check which if anything is found that PA codes cannot identify it is a human being doing the review and denying.
4) If #3 is true, how has this been going on for so long without a massive pushback against #2 rights?

[HanzMcFeely]

IANAL and YMMV:

Best thing to do is fill out the challenge form, wait for an answer, and prepare to hire a lawyer just in case. Phil/Gunlawyer001 or Josh/Sig4Life are the resident go to here.

[Walleye Hunter]

You are in risky territory and as time goes on, it seems that they are prosecuting those who inadvertently fill the form out wrong. I'd talk to a lawyer quickly and before you file a challenge. Then you can discuss the specifics of your case with them confidentially and see where you stand. IIRC, someone around here once had what was a prohibiting offense in another state that was not a prohibiter here but because it was there, it carried weight here. I recently spoke with a guy who was prohibited because of a DUI but it took them a year or more to get to him and he is now guilty of falsifying the form.

[johnny_165]

You are in risky territory and as time goes on, it seems that they are prosecuting those who inadvertently fill the form out wrong. I'd talk to a lawyer quickly and before you file a challenge. Then you can discuss the specifics of your case with them confidentially and see where you stand. IIRC, someone around here once had what was a prohibiting offense in another state that was not a prohibiter here but because it was there, it carried weight here. I recently spoke with a guy who was prohibited because of a DUI but it took them a year or more to get to him and he is now guilty of falsifying the form.

I did, one attorney said it looks like your assault conviction was misclassified. To me, that means the courts misclassified the assault. I went to the courts, they had no idea what I was talking about "classifying" if assault was domestic or non domestic. It was 18 § 2701 §§ A1 ... that is a simple assault charge code and I can find no language that suggests if that is domestic or not.

So for a review of conviction 18 § 2701 §§ A1 it would have to be done by a human, at the state police. There is no other way for them to know the way it has been set up, unless of course I'm overlooking something and 18 § 2701 §§ A1 actually does classify as domestic and the attorney was correct, it needs to be reclassified.

[Walleye Hunter]

I did, one attorney said it looks like your assault conviction was misclassified. To me, that means the courts misclassified the assault. I went to the courts, they had no idea what I was talking about "classifying" if assault was domestic or non domestic. It was 18 § 2701 §§ A1 ... that is a simple assault charge code and I can find no language that suggests if that is domestic or not.

So for a review of conviction 18 § 2701 §§ A1 it would have to be done by a human, at the state police. There is no other way for them to know the way it has been set up, unless of course I'm overlooking something and 18 § 2701 §§ A1 actually does classify as domestic and the attorney was correct, it needs to be reclassified.

I don't understand...you said it was out of state but that 18 § 2701 §§ A1 is a PA offense.

[johnny_165]

I don't understand...you said it was out of state but that 18 § 2701 §§ A1 is a PA offense.

flagged multiple charges, out of state and in state. 18 § 2701 §§ A1 they said was "simple assault is prohibiting as it was determined to be a state misdemeanor offense involving domestic violence".

How did they determine that? All court records are lost, only thing available is arrest records.

[Walleye Hunter]

flagged multiple charges, out of state and in state. 18 § 2701 §§ A1 they said was "simple assault is prohibiting as it was determined to be a state misdemeanor offense involving domestic violence".

How did they determine that? All court records are lost, only thing available is arrest records.

Hmm....what does your record say? Do you know how to search the unified justice portal, where it details a persons records? And I'm also thinking that M2s that involve violence are prohibitors but I am not sure. I am not a lawyer.

[johnny_165]

Hmm....what does your record say? Do you know how to search the unified justice portal, where it details a persons records? And I'm also thinking that M2s that involve violence are prohibitors but I am not sure. I am not a lawyer.

M2 assaults are not prohibitive unless a domestic. It was federal law enacted in I believe 1996. My plea deal was not domestic. No court documents exist anymore, they do not have them. There is only an arrest record which outlines 2 separate events and someone, at the police state department, took the 1 event as fact when he/she has actually no idea what in the world transpired. That is, in part, why I started this thread. How does PICS determine a simple assault is domestic or not? Is it an actual human being, in real time, making these decisions? Also goes into my question, is PICS instant?

[GunLawyer001]

The Federal domestic violence misdemeanor prohibition law was passed at a time before many states had those on the books, so for most people today, old domestic violence convictions don't use those words. PICS and NICS have to look behind the conviction, at the charging documents, the Affidavit of Probable Cause, for the specific (alleged) facts of the case. An M3 bar fight looks the same as an M3 wife battering, but only the latter is prohibiting.

Don't send in the Challenge Form unless you have a solid legal basis, because the Form itself warns you about prosecution for unsworn written falsification, and they DO prosecute, a lot. PA prosecutes more PICS denials/Challenges in PA than ATF prosecutes for the rest of the USA.

We do a "due diligence" process for this purpose, where we review all the prohibitors, your records, and form a legal opinion. Even if we were ever wrong (so far, that's a hypothetical) and sent someone off to try when they were in fact prohibited, the fact that you have a legal opinion justifying your Challenge or attempt to buy a gun, is a legal defense, "reliance on advice of counsel". Of course if you lie to the lawyer to get that opinion, "G.I., G.O."

Whatever you do, get a lawyer's opinion backing you up. If it turns out you're legitimately being PICS denied, there may be options to correct the records or restore your rights.

[johnny_165]

The Federal domestic violence misdemeanor prohibition law was passed at a time before many states had those on the books, so for most people today, old domestic violence convictions don't use those words. PICS and NICS have to look behind the conviction, at the charging documents, the Affidavit of Probable Cause, for the specific (alleged) facts of the case. An M3 bar fight looks the same as an M3 wife battering, but only the latter is prohibiting.

Don't send in the Challenge Form unless you have a solid legal basis, because the Form itself warns you about prosecution for unsworn written falsification, and they DO prosecute, a lot. PA prosecutes more PICS denials/Challenges in PA than ATF prosecutes for the rest of the USA.

We do a "due diligence" process for this purpose, where we review all the prohibitors, your records, and form a legal opinion. Even if we were ever wrong (so far, that's a hypothetical) and sent someone off to try when they were in fact prohibited, the fact that you have a legal opinion justifying your Challenge or attempt to buy a gun, is a legal defense, "reliance on advice of counsel". Of course if you lie to the lawyer to get that opinion, "G.I., G.O."

Whatever you do, get a lawyer's opinion backing you up. If it turns out you're legitimately being PICS denied, there may be options to correct the records or restore your rights.

"PICS and NICS have to look behind the conviction, at the charging documents"

So PICS is not instantaneous then. Isn't that illegal?