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Thread: DCNR Authority

  1. #1
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    Default DCNR Authority

    I recently saw a sign at March Creek State park that said hunting was permitted in established seasons. But it also said only muzzle loader, archery, and shotgun are permitted. It specifically stated that rimfire rifles and handguns are not permitted. It lists title 17 11.215(2)(ii) on the sign. However, I don't see anything in there stating they have authority to set rules contradictory to the game commission.

    I called the game commission to find out about this. They said DCNR has authority to make rules about "anything they want, like a private land owner".

    This doesn't sound right to me. Where in the code/statute does DCNR get authority for setting additonal special restrictions?
    I am not a lawyer

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    Default Re: DCNR Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by giant_g2 View Post
    I recently saw a sign at March Creek State park that said hunting was permitted in established seasons. But it also said only muzzle loader, archery, and shotgun are permitted. It specifically stated that rimfire rifles and handguns are not permitted. It lists title 17 11.215(2)(ii) on the sign. However, I don't see anything in there stating they have authority to set rules contradictory to the game commission.

    I called the game commission to find out about this. They said DCNR has authority to make rules about "anything they want, like a private land owner".

    This doesn't sound right to me. Where in the code/statute does DCNR get authority for setting additonal special restrictions?
    I don't have your answer, but the text I bolded sounds like absolute BS. Maybe a land owner can do that with regard to setting guidelines for hunting if that's what you meant.

    I thought 'special regulations' areas had to in the 'Digest,' not some randomly posted signage. There has to be a process for that.

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    Default Re: DCNR Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by giant_g2 View Post
    I recently saw a sign at March Creek State park that said hunting was permitted in established seasons. But it also said only muzzle loader, archery, and shotgun are permitted. It specifically stated that rimfire rifles and handguns are not permitted. It lists title 17 11.215(2)(ii) on the sign. However, I don't see anything in there stating they have authority to set rules contradictory to the game commission.

    I called the game commission to find out about this. They said DCNR has authority to make rules about "anything they want, like a private land owner".

    This doesn't sound right to me. Where in the code/statute does DCNR get authority for setting additonal special restrictions?

    Under Title 18. 7506


    7506. Violation of rules regarding conduct on Commonwealth property.
    (a) Promulgation of rules and regulations.--The Department of Environmental Resources, Pennsylvania Game Commission and Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission may promulgate rules and regulations governing conduct, other than conduct regulated in section 7505 (relating to violation of governmental rules regarding traffic), on Commonwealth property within the jurisdiction of that agency. Such rules and regulations shall be reasonably related to the preservation and protection of such property for its specified or intended use, or to promote the welfare, safety or protection of those persons using such property, shall be consistent with existing law and shall be posted in a manner reasonable likely to come to the attention of persons using such property.
    (b) Violation penalty.--A person who violates any of the rules and regulations promulgated pursuant to this section is guilty of a summary offense.
    (July 1, 1978, P.L.564, No.97, eff. imd.; July 8, 1986, P.L.442, No.93, eff. July 1, 1987)
    ΑΣΦ

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    Default Re: DCNR Authority

    Thanks!

    It's a little disappointing they can use it this way. The regulation against rimfires makes no sense if they still allow shotguns with slugs and muzzleloaders. At least I see this as unreasonably arbitrary with no measurable inpact to safety. Seems like if the wrong people get in, they'll just do away with hunting on those lands, or make it difficult enough that people give up.

    Also, it would have been nice for them to cite that section on the sign instead of the other one.

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    Default Re: DCNR Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by esh21167 View Post
    I don't have your answer, but the text I bolded sounds like absolute BS. Maybe a land owner can do that with regard to setting guidelines for hunting if that's what you meant.

    I thought 'special regulations' areas had to in the 'Digest,' not some randomly posted signage. There has to be a process for that.
    They meant DCNR can make any rule. They also said one possible reason for the rule was to "slow the bullets down". I almost laughed at that one.

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    Default Re: DCNR Authority

    The sign told you the citation of authority.

    Previous Doc
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    Chapter 11 Contents
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    Title 17 Chapter 11 17 Pa. Code 11.215. Weapons and hunting.
    11.215. Weapons and hunting.
    The following activities are prohibited without written permission of the Department:

    (1) Hunting, pursuing or intentionally disturbing woodchucks, also known as groundhogs. Paragraph (2) does not apply to this activity.

    (2) Hunting, pursuing or intentionally disturbing wildlife unless:

    (i) The person engaging in the activity is licensed by the Game Commission to hunt and is engaged in hunting in accordance with the Game and Wildlife Code.

    (ii) The activity takes place in an area designated by the Department for hunting. At Presque Isle State Park, waterfowl hunting may take place only from a facility designated by the Department as a waterfowl blind, and shooting shall be directed away from State park land and over the adjacent waters.


    It basically says that DCNR can restrict hunting activity as it sees fit, provided that it is located on DCNR property. State Parks fall under DCNR authority, not PGC, at least as far as usage goes.
    Malo accepto stultus sapit

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    Default Re: DCNR Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandcut View Post
    The sign told you the citation of authority.

    Previous Doc
    Next Doc
    Chapter 11 Contents
    Title 17 Contents
    Search
    Print
    Full Screen
    Title 17 Chapter 11 17 Pa. Code 11.215. Weapons and hunting.
    11.215. Weapons and hunting.
    The following activities are prohibited without written permission of the Department:

    (1) Hunting, pursuing or intentionally disturbing woodchucks, also known as groundhogs. Paragraph (2) does not apply to this activity.

    (2) Hunting, pursuing or intentionally disturbing wildlife unless:

    (i) The person engaging in the activity is licensed by the Game Commission to hunt and is engaged in hunting in accordance with the Game and Wildlife Code.

    (ii) The activity takes place in an area designated by the Department for hunting. At Presque Isle State Park, waterfowl hunting may take place only from a facility designated by the Department as a waterfowl blind, and shooting shall be directed away from State park land and over the adjacent waters.


    It basically says that DCNR can restrict hunting activity as it sees fit, provided that it is located on DCNR property. State Parks fall under DCNR authority, not PGC, at least as far as usage goes.
    Where does that say they can restrict it as they see fit? A strict reading of the code you posted says they can designate areas for hunting, but doesn't mention any authority to set additonal restrictions beyond what is listed there.

    The other poster already provided the citation for the authority.

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    Default Re: DCNR Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by giant_g2 View Post
    Where does that say they can restrict it as they see fit? A strict reading of the code you posted says they can designate areas for hunting, but doesn't mention any authority to set additonal restrictions beyond what is listed there.

    The other poster already provided the citation for the authority.
    No, it doesn't.

    That regulation governs PADER (which is now PA Dept. of Env. Protection), PHMC, and PGC. It makes no mention of PADCNR.

    And the simple fact that it states that you can only hunt in designated areas, along with the example of where and how one can hunt waterfowl, sure implies to me that they can restrict or allow hunting as they see fit on DCNR property. For example, nowhere else in game law does it state that waterfowl hunters must hunt over open waters and not shoot over other lands. Since that is not a PGC requirement, how else would it be regulated?
    Malo accepto stultus sapit

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    Default Re: DCNR Authority

    How can you tell who enacted those regulations? And just because an agency does something, doesn't mean they were given that power. Administrative law requires explicit grants of power (which we see in the link below).

    Please read the notes. DCNR was granted DER powers when DEP was created.
    https://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/L...5.006.000..HTM

  10. #10
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    Default Re: DCNR Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by giant_g2 View Post
    How can you determine that it is not a PGC requirement? They do set special regulations for locales. I don't see anything in there pertaining to how this was set or by whom.

    No. It is now DCNR. Please read the notes.
    https://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/L...5.006.000..HTM

    Please read it again.

    Pa Dept. of Env. Resources (PADER) was renamed the PA Dept. of Protection (PADEP) at the same time that the PA Dept. of Conservation and Natural Resources (PADCNR) was created by Section 313(e) of Act 18 of 1995.

    PADER had a different function prior to the late 80s - early 90s, when PA implemented their "Chapter 105" program for regulating earthmoving activities in streams and wetlands. Their prior function of management of state lands went to the newly formed agency, PADCNR. I know this because I have had occasion to work with various PADER offices up until the change, and I've worked with both PADEP and PADCNR offices since then.

    From your citation:

    ...which created the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources and renamed the Department of Environmental Resources as the Department of Environmental Protection...
    Malo accepto stultus sapit

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