Dealing with rudeness and such

[bigandy1966]

years ago I was on the Market St El at 10:00 at night. Some drunk dude was sexually harassing some poor girl traveling alone. He was grinding on her shoulder and trying to grab her breasts, she was calling out for help. I told the drunk to leave the girl alone, he started haranguing me all the way into 69th street terminal, it was actually really disgustingly comical how truly revolting the guy was, I was laughing at him all the way down to the terminal.
I stood up to get off the train and the idiot saw how big I was, about shit his pants and fell down on the floor of the train. My co worker said "I thought he was going to pull a gun on you, you should keep your mouth shut and mind your own business."
I laughed.

[Ronin]

I don't have the answer to your question.

However....it doesn't take a genius to figure out where your interjection made lead, given the crowd you are directing it to. So, really, you have to ask yourself, before you ever open your mouth, is it worth the risk of ending up in court for shooting one or more of these fellows, because you felt the need to involve yourself in business that isn't yours. If the answer is "yes" then I don't think your legal standing matters. You're doing what you think is the right thing, and the chips fall where they may. If the answer is "no", then you might consider doing something more reasonable, such as having a word with the manager...you know, the person whose actual job is to deal with this kind of thing.

Real life isn't like some Hollywood movie, where honourable guy does noble deeds, puts bad guys in their place and suffers no repercussions. Remember that if even if you go to court and win, you're still out time, money, potentially a job, and other things. Better make damned sure it's all worth it before opening your mouth when you are armed.

That's how "I all" think (;

Well said. Won't let me rep you though.

[tl_3237]

Alright y*all,

I*m pretty sure I asked this a few years back, but my google-fu is weak today:

If I understand correctly, self defense can not be claimed by the person who initiated the encounter. Let*s say I come across a young Lou Ferigno and his 2 brothers harassing a young waitress at an outdoor table, getting particularly unpleasant in their language. This behavior is unacceptable (or should be) in any society, so I ask them not so politely to bugger off. Apparently, they take umbrage at my chivalry and they turn their attentions to me. They are younger, taller, wider, and faster than me, with fists the size of my head, so a definite disparity of force. When they start to charge at me I draw my EDC and tell them to stop. When they don*t, I stop them.

Have I lost the right to self defense by *starting* this fight? There are many societal ills that *should* be addressed, but I find myself hesitant because I don*t want to *dis* someone without a proper conscience and wind up needing to use deadly force to correct their psychological imbalance.

I just wonder how all y*all think*

IMO your hypothetical verbal admonishment to the harassing group does not make you an instigator (aggressor) under the statute.

Their "charging" you could reasonably be argued as the first use of force in the encounter making them the aggressor(s). In response you can use whatever force that, within reason, may be necessary to counter the "attack" (such as display your EDC).

You concern about who is the aggressor and whether they are barred from claiming self defense is misplaced. I believe that stems from:

18 PA CSA §505

(b) Limitations on justifying necessity for use of force.--

(2) The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section unless the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat; nor is it justifiable if:

(i) the actor, with the intent of causing death or serious bodily injury, provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter; or

(ii) the actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating, except the actor is not obliged to retreat from his dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be.

As you posed in the scenario you did not engage with the intent of precipitating an escalating encounter so you could employ deadly force (see bolded above).

With that said and as others have already opined, you should judiciously avail yourself of every reasonable opportunity to break off the encounter. I'm ambivalent whether you could invoke "stand your ground" unless you can convince a trier-of-fact, inter alia, that the disparity of force capability meets:

(2.3)(iii) the person against whom the force is used displays or otherwise uses:

(A) a firearm( or replica of a firearm as defined in 42 Pa.C.S. § 9712 (relating to sentences for offenses committed with firearms); or

(B) any other weapon readily or apparently capable of lethal use.

[JenniferG]

For me and this is just for me. If the fellas are just being rude then that's all there is to it, rude assholes. If they begin with hands on, grabbing, shoving or anyway getting physical then I will stand up and defend the person by first calling 911 and telling them a person is being assaulted at such and such location then I will let them know to knock that shit off the police are on the way. Video of the incident would be helpful but if it become a dire situation then it's all in.

[Sandcut]

There's also going to be a big difference in how your actions will be received depending on whether you start out with, "Hey, guys. Let the lady do her job. She's pretty busy" vs. "Hey, dick lips! Knock it off before I slap the piss out of all three of you!"

Either way, regardless of whether or not it's the right thing to do, or even what I would do, you'd be naive to think that it wouldn't bring untoward attention to yourself and whomever you were with. So, you all better be ready to respond.

[free]

Dick lips?

HahahahahahahahHHh!

[gamer_jim]

If I understand correctly, self defense can not be claimed by the person who initiated the encounter.

A few years ago I was a potential juror in a homicide trial. The defendants initiated a fight in a bar and then tried to leave. In the parking lot the man whom they started the fight with wouldn't let them leave and attacked them again. The defendants ended up killing him and were declared not guilty by a jury. The time between when the fight had initiated in the bar to the time of the parking lot had allowed the now attacker time to retreat. But because he re-initiated the fight then self defense was back in play.

Second thing, always carry pepper spray with you. Blessing the deserving with the hot sauce is a great way to deescalate a situation without having to use lethal force. If nothing else spraying someone might give you the few moments to leave the situation.

Third, I'm going to help someone regardless. I don't want it on my conscious that someone became a victim because I was too scared.

[Spaceballs]

A few years ago I was a potential juror in a homicide trial. The defendants initiated a fight in a bar and then tried to leave. In the parking lot the man whom they started the fight with wouldn't let them leave and attacked them again. The defendants ended up killing him and were declared not guilty by a jury. The time between when the fight had initiated in the bar to the time of the parking lot had allowed the now attacker time to retreat. But because he re-initiated the fight then self defense was back in play.

.

What you described is legally 2 separate incidents. It might not seem like that to the people involved, especially if only minutes pass between them. But once the first incident ends and someone walks away any additional altercations are a new incident. And the self defense rules are reset. In this case the original attackers not because the attackees in the 2nd incident.

There is grey area in practice as theine between the first incident and the second one is sometimes more blurry. But in your example they had left the bar and the altercation was over. The other guys continuing it made it a new altercation legally.

The moral of this example is that if you have an opportunity to walk away from a fight, take it. Either as the aggressor or the victim. Walk away and avoid the legal hassle. (Does not apply if someone else would be left in danger by you leaving)

[Spaceballs]

Second thing, always carry pepper spray with you. Blessing the deserving with the hot sauce is a great way to deescalate a situation without having to use lethal force. If nothing else spraying someone might give you the few moments to leave the situation.

(Not saying you haven't done this. This is general advice for everyone)

I highly recommend buying an extra can of spray and shooting it off before trying to use it in self defense. Empty the bottle. Make sure you know how to use the trigger. Sometimes they put safety tabs on those that need to be removed first.

Aim it at a target 3 feet away (like you would use it against an attacker)

You are going to get back splash. It will burn a little. You should know that feeling and know it's coming if you ever have to use spray in real life so you don't panic when the backsplash hits your eyes. It's really not that bad. But it's jarring if you aren't used to it.

Nice thing about pepper spray is that if you use it and the attacker is still coming at you, you have a good basis for a defense in court on why you used lethal force. "I tried to use non lethal force and the bad guy wasn't retreating, your honor!"

You need to make sure you didnct pepper spray someone too soon though and that you were in danger when you sprayed. Otherwise your pepper spray could be seen as you escalating force. The bad guy WILL claim he never intended to hurt you and was just defending himself when you mercilessly pepper sprayed him then started shooting at him.

So be REAL sure that you were in danger before you pepper spray. Or at least that you can defend that a reasonable person would think they were in danger.

Finally....be prepared for pepper spray to not work.

It's not that bad. It's just jarring if you've never been hit with it before. If you have been hit with pepper spray (and most career criminal thug types have) you get used to it and it may just piss a bad guy off more. You need to be prepared for it to be ineffective.

[Spaceballs]

Third, I'm going to help someone regardless. I don't want it on my conscious that someone became a victim because I was too scared.

(Edit: WTF? This was supposed to be 1 post. Not 3...whatever...)

I think most of us fall into the "I couldn't live with myself if I let someone else get hurt and did nothing" catagory. So I totally understand.

But you have to be REAL CERTAIN that you know FOR SURE what was happening in an altercation between 2 other people.

I heard an example recently of a guy who walked into a gas station legally carrying a firearm.

He saw a man with a shotgun aiming at a man behind the counter with his hands up.

The concealed carrier drew his pistol and shot the man with the shotgun thinking he was the hero of the day.

Turns out that the man with the shotgun was the owner of the gas station. The man behind the counter was a robber who had just shot the actual cashier, who was laying dead at the robber's feet out of view of the concealed carrier.

Any reasonable person would have walked in there and thought the man with the shotgun was the bad guy. But he wasn't.

If you see the start of a fight and know what is going on and who the aggressor was, that is one thing. If you walk into the middle of it... be REAL CAREFUL.