Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Feb 2013
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    Upper Darby, Pennsylvania
    (Delaware County)
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    Question Dealing with rudeness and such

    Alright y’all,

    I’m pretty sure I asked this a few years back, but my google-fu is weak today:

    If I understand correctly, self defense can not be claimed by the person who initiated the encounter. Let’s say I come across a young Lou Ferigno and his 2 brothers harassing a young waitress at an outdoor table, getting particularly unpleasant in their language. This behavior is unacceptable (or should be) in any society, so I ask them not so politely to bugger off. Apparently, they take umbrage at my chivalry and they turn their attentions to me. They are younger, taller, wider, and faster than me, with fists the size of my head, so a definite disparity of force. When they start to charge at me I draw my EDC and tell them to stop. When they don’t, I stop them.

    Have I lost the right to self defense by “starting” this fight? There are many societal ills that ‘should’ be addressed, but I find myself hesitant because I don’t want to “dis” someone without a proper conscience and wind up needing to use deadly force to correct their psychological imbalance.

    I just wonder how all y’all think…

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Folsom, Pennsylvania
    (Delaware County)
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    Default Re: Dealing with rudeness and such

    Regardless of the law, it really depends on the judgement of 12 of your peers.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    Belly of the BEAST, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: Dealing with rudeness and such

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt.K View Post
    Alright y*all,

    I*m pretty sure I asked this a few years back, but my google-fu is weak today:

    If I understand correctly, self defense can not be claimed by the person who initiated the encounter. Let*s say I come across a young Lou Ferigno and his 2 brothers harassing a young waitress at an outdoor table, getting particularly unpleasant in their language. This behavior is unacceptable (or should be) in any society, so I ask them not so politely to bugger off. Apparently, they take umbrage at my chivalry and they turn their attentions to me. They are younger, taller, wider, and faster than me, with fists the size of my head, so a definite disparity of force. When they start to charge at me I draw my EDC and tell them to stop. When they don*t, I stop them.

    Have I lost the right to self defense by *starting* this fight? There are many societal ills that *should* be addressed, but I find myself hesitant because I don*t want to *dis* someone without a proper conscience and wind up needing to use deadly force to correct their psychological imbalance.

    I just wonder how all y*all think*
    Sometimes you need to do what is right, and not worry about what others might think.

    You cross that bridge when you get to it.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Scenery Hill, Pennsylvania
    (Washington County)
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    Default Re: Dealing with rudeness and such

    Every use of self defense force is completely unqiue.

    I think you are confusing escalation of force with the premise of engaging people in conversation they don*t want to hear.
    Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    Raccoon City, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Dealing with rudeness and such

    If your asking the waitress for a fresh napkin, to perform her job functions. Louie louie and his gym bros decide you are interfering with them getting their "game" on.
    I think you are interacting with the waitress, not the steroid stallions.
    If they decide to interject themselves into your discussion with a service provider in regards to her doing her job, then THEY become the initiators of the confrontation..
    If I sat on the jury and the story was described from both points of view, I think I would vote for jury nullification
    the more you know.
    Derrion Albert was my Hero.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: Dealing with rudeness and such

    I don't have the answer to your question.

    However....it doesn't take a genius to figure out where your interjection made lead, given the crowd you are directing it to. So, really, you have to ask yourself, before you ever open your mouth, is it worth the risk of ending up in court for shooting one or more of these fellows, because you felt the need to involve yourself in business that isn't yours. If the answer is "yes" then I don't think your legal standing matters. You're doing what you think is the right thing, and the chips fall where they may. If the answer is "no", then you might consider doing something more reasonable, such as having a word with the manager...you know, the person whose actual job is to deal with this kind of thing.

    Real life isn't like some Hollywood movie, where honourable guy does noble deeds, puts bad guys in their place and suffers no repercussions. Remember that if even if you go to court and win, you're still out time, money, potentially a job, and other things. Better make damned sure it's all worth it before opening your mouth when you are armed.

    That's how "I all" think (;
    Last edited by free; September 10th, 2022 at 08:39 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    PENNSYLVANIA, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Dealing with rudeness and such

    Depending on situation I usually respond with , WHAT ! DID I GROW TWO F##KIN HEADS ! And or I do eye contact and not one blink of an eye starring into assholes eyes !

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    I avoid cities, Pennsylvania
    (York County)
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    Default Re: Dealing with rudeness and such

    The prosecutor's mindset is the determining factor here.

    If you have a reasonable prosecutor who looks at the facts and decides that asking 3 guys to stop harassing a woman was reasonable (not instigatory) and that their reaction was the start of the altercation...then you are likely off the hook.

    If you have a Soros funded prosecutor he is going to look for reasons to persecute you and will present to a jury that your request that they behave like humans was the start of the altercstion, this making you the aggressor.

    By the 2nd definition no one who is carrying a gun should ever talk to anyone else for any reason, since any escalation that happens after that can lead back to you as the "starter".

    That is, of course, insane. But insanity isn't going to stop a 2A hating liberal prosecutor.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
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    Douglassville, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
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    Default Re: Dealing with rudeness and such

    I don't think so. I think you're more talking about something like breaking into someone's house or car and encountering them about to shoot you. Or walking up and punching someone in the head for the hell of it. In those cases, self defense would not apply for the perp. IANAL
    2024 Trump or Bust!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
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    The cold, dark, void, Pennsylvania
    (Clearfield County)
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    Default Re: Dealing with rudeness and such

    Just a side note, there isn't any "disparity of force" written in to PA self defense laws.
    NOBODY NEEDS ASSAULT SPEECH

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