Family handgun transfers

[Rem58]

Hi folks,

I'm new here, my first post, but I have been reading these forums for years and continually find them to be some of the best info about guns online.

I have a gun that I would like to give to my father-in-law. I have read the sticky about family gun transfers on this site, called a couple of gun shops, and even called my local sheriff's dept here in Erie county and I get some conflicting information. I am looking for your advice and experience in this gun transfer matter.

From how I read the rules, I should be able to give the gun to my wife and then legally she could then give it to her father without any paperwork or going through the formal PA state transfer process.

So, that got me thinking, if that scenario is possible, how far can it legally be taken? Could my father-in-law then give it to his son, and then his son give to his wife, and then she give it to her grandfather who could give it to his daughter and then she could give it to her husband? Where does it stop?

In another scenario I thought about, it doesn't seem to make sense that I can't give a gun to my sister without the transfer process, but yet I could give it to my dad and he could then give it to her. Is that really how the law works?

[Steve in PA]

It*s an end-around play around the transfer law. What you profess can be done (giving it to your wife, who then gives it to her father), provided all parties are residents of PA and legally allowed to process firearms.

How far can it go??? Again, provided everyone is legal and a resident of PA**.????

[jthrelf]

Hi folks,

I'm new here, my first post, but I have been reading these forums for years and continually find them to be some of the best info about guns online.

I have a gun that I would like to give to my father-in-law. I have read the sticky about family gun transfers on this site, called a couple of gun shops, and even called my local sheriff's dept here in Erie county and I get some conflicting information. I am looking for your advice and experience in this gun transfer matter.

From how I read the rules, I should be able to give the gun to my wife and then legally she could then give it to her father without any paperwork or going through the formal PA state transfer process.

So, that got me thinking, if that scenario is possible, how far can it legally be taken? Could my father-in-law then give it to his son, and then his son give to his wife, and then she give it to her grandfather who could give it to his daughter and then she could give it to her husband? Where does it stop?

In another scenario I thought about, it doesn't seem to make sense that I can't give a gun to my sister without the transfer process, but yet I could give it to my dad and he could then give it to her. Is that really how the law works?

It really is and it's silly. I'm not aware of any case law for really stretching the intent (i.e. the hypothetical you describe).

The fact that you just posted about ultimately wanting to give it to your father in law is a factor. If you gave it to your wife and 5 minutes later she "decided" it would fit her dad better than her, that's a different story.

Yeah a lot of it is 'thought police'.

The other real world aspect is if your father in law intends to carry this gun without an FFL transfer, there is a small chance LE could run it against the PA record of sales database (that is essentially an incomplete registry) and give him issues - though that shouldn't happen because it's absolutely not illegal to carry a gun not listed in that database. Filling out the state form at the FFL eliminates this possibility though.

It's gray area - do what you think is right.

[Walleye Hunter]

Are you allowed to give it to anyone knowing that they are just going to give it away?

[tl_3237]

Without the OPs answers to the previous questions I posed its impossible to offer an opinion on the Federal or state implications.

With respect to the mother-daughter-husband transfer scenario one should give pause if the original intent is to effect a mother-in-law to son-in-law transfer using the daughter/wife as a comon link to supposedly qualify under the exclusions of 18 Pa CSA 6111(c).

Although such a three person chain may be in accordance with the letter of the law when evaluated at each transfer instance, the legal system may well look at the totality of circumstances and declare such a multiple transfer as a 'sham transfer' and deem it a MIL - SIL transfer (not qualifying for the PA exception).

The critical part of the transfer is what is the true intent in the MIL-daughter transfer. One would have to look at the benefactor's intent, what the daughter did after receipt, and the timeline.

For example: if all three are sitting around the kitchen table --

MIL "here daughter, take my handgun as a gift."
Daug "Thanks MOM!"
Daug "Here Hubby, take this handgun [which I just got] as a gift"
Husb "Thanks Babe!"

All this transpires with a minute or so. Perfectly legal or a 'sham' to effect a MIL-SIL transfer?

Not aware of any changes since 2009 that would provide for 'sham' transfers.

[Rem58]

I can get a transfer processed for $20 and will do that since I think that is the right thing to do. But, you know there is always that little voice that says "Oh just give it to your wife to give to him."

But, I was just more curious about how this Law actually works. It seems silly to me to have legal rules that are so ambiguous, and if what I am reading is correct, I could actually legally give someone a gun that's not directly related to me at all through family connections. It's just weird.

[Rem58]

That makes much more sense. I didn't know about the "sham" part.

[bigandy1966]

if YOU have a LTCF and your Father in law has a LTCF, you can loan him the pistol while the terms of the loan are not defined. hell you don't even need to be a relative to loan a gun out to a person with a LTCF.

[57springer]

I would not be posting about questionable gifts on the net . Good way to be on the ATF "list " .

[eagleclaw]

My suggestion assuming the gun is a handgun ;take the father in law and the firearm to a gun shop make the transfer official. That way he gets PIC checked so you are not giving a firearm to someone who is unable to legally own them and most importantly you are no longer the owner of said firearm on the PA State Police Registry of sale.