Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #31
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    ...., Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: ATF Agent takes pics of all log book pages

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandcut View Post
    Actually, I'm not so sure that her recording the mistakes on the ATF forms was unlawful. Her job with the BATFE is to monitor gun shops for following proper procedures and to record those instances where mistakes were made. If mistakes were made, they are in noncompliance with the law and the agency's responsibility is to correct that. In order to correct that, a file must be made in order to document those instances where mistakes were made. In order to do that, she would either need to photocopy each sheet with a mistake, or photograph it. Since all of the fed.gov has gone "paperless", she could photocopy, but then she'd have to scan to .pdf back at the office. She likely just had a .pdf converter on her phone. They are commonplace everywhere in the world except, maybe, on this forum.

    The big mistake that I do see, as DomerDad pointed out, is what vulnerabilities does she expose herself to by recording evidence for and enforcement action on her personal phone. That is just dimwitted and a rookie mistake. None of our compliance staff are allowed to do that, for good reason. It would be unsavory if the ribald memes, texts, and general asshattery that is contained on my phone was ever required to be released in court, and my phone is tame compared to many folks that I know.

    So, I don't believe that what she has done constitutes " a registry", and I don't believe it to be illegal. However, I would question her ability to perform her enforcement duties reasonably, effectively, and respectfully.
    It appears that she did not only take pictures of the pages with supposed *clerical errors*, but every single page of every book they had. There*s only one reason to be doing that, and it*s not hard to figure out what it is.
    “A Republic, if you can keep it.” - Benjamin Franklin

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Reading, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
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    Default Re: ATF Agent takes pics of all log book pages

    yes the ATF has almost 1 billion firearm records in digital format, but its not a registry according to them. its supposedly isnt searchable by identifying information and can only be accessed when a law enforcement agency requests help.
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...xt/9304431002/

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    somewhere, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: ATF Agent takes pics of all log book pages

    Quote Originally Posted by akley88 View Post
    yes the ATF has almost 1 billion firearm records in digital format, but its not a registry according to them. its supposedly isnt searchable by identifying information and can only be accessed when a law enforcement agency requests help.
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...xt/9304431002/
    It is searchable by nearly all other fields except name. So if they take 10 seconds to search for the previous and current addresses of a person in any of the numerous public records databases that have all of that info, they can quickly pull up the 4473 for every gun ever purchased by that person that has been ingested into their database so far.

    Of course, it's also searchable by firearm model too, so if they decide something you have should make you a felon, they'll be able to find them quickly.

    The only thing stopping them from searching by name is a checkbox in the application that disables that field.

    The GOA filed FOIAs and wrote an in-depth report about their registry available here: https://forms.gunowners.org/webform/..._gun_registry/

    The entire registry is an unconstitutional infringement.
    Last edited by buckengr; July 28th, 2022 at 04:27 PM.
    I am not a lawyer.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Peach Bottom, Pennsylvania
    (Lancaster County)
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    Default Re: ATF Agent takes pics of all log book pages

    If that so called agent used her personal phone, while on duty, too take photos or to produce a digital image of the 4473 form, which in itself is an official record, then her personal phone CAN be seized for FOIA requests and for discovery in the event of a lawsuit / criminal proceedings.

    Another thing. The 4473 form also contains PII, which in itself MUST be protected and CANNOT be stored on any device that is NOT authorized to process or store PII.

    PII = Personally Identifiable Information. This includes name, date of birth, address, social security number, etc

    In a nutshell, she created an official record with that first photo... IF she used an unauthorized device too record / store PII, then she violated federal law and can be charged for each offense. This means 1 charge for each 4473 form that she processed.
    Last edited by PASE717; July 28th, 2022 at 10:55 AM.
    "If you're not catching flak, you're not over the target"

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Ercildoun, Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
    Posts
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    Default Re: ATF Agent takes pics of all log book pages

    Quote Originally Posted by akley88 View Post
    yes the ATF has almost 1 billion firearm records in digital format, but its not a registry according to them. its supposedly isnt searchable by identifying information and can only be accessed when a law enforcement agency requests help.
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...xt/9304431002/
    That's the same as saying the FBI doesn't keep records of NICS checks. Of course they do, there's no one that can hold them responsible for anything illegal that they do. Who's going to challenge them, Barney Fife or that lawyer scammer Lin Wood that made money off scamming contributors for Kyle Rittenhouse? There are groups that can report these illegal activities like Judicial Watch and some others but they are basically powerless against the FBI and DOJ.
    We now live in an era which future generations will refer to as “the Great Deception”

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Levittown, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    21474858

    Default Re: ATF Agent takes pics of all log book pages

    I don't see the problem. The second amendment to our US Constitution protects our gun rights. Whatever Pam Scott was doing cannot supersede our rights. Oh, wait...
    There are two kinds of guns. Those I have acquired, and those I hope to.

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