Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: ATF Agent takes pics of all log book pages

    Quote Originally Posted by Qtrborecrazy View Post

    And where are our champions of the 2nd amendment republicans?
    They only exist when it's election season.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: ATF Agent takes pics of all log book pages

    Quote Originally Posted by akley88 View Post
    there is a little bit of a difference I'm going to say between using the scanner for walmart and for the ATF. she has private personal information on something that may not be government property so im not sure how FOIA would work on that.

    part of the issue the owner had was she wasnt looking for errors she was flipping page by page and taking the photos of every record cause she wanted them digitally.
    No. You don't seem to understand what I explained.
    I called to check my ZIP CODE!....DY-NO-MITE!!!

  3. #23
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    Default Re: ATF Agent takes pics of all log book pages

    Quote Originally Posted by esh21167 View Post
    I'd say it's a huge difference. What are you scanning with your phone at Walmart with their app? Product inventory that goes to an inventory database? What did the ATF agent document in this case? Names, addresses, phone numbers of probably hundreds of gun buyers.
    None of that stuff "scanned at Walmart" goes "into" MY phone - it's scanned using their app. It's like I'm using a different device - nothing is retained in my phone and the app can't be utilized off the clock.

    (I refused to use it. My phone is my phone - I didn't buy it to use for work. Eventually they issued everyone a phone for work use)
    I called to check my ZIP CODE!....DY-NO-MITE!!!

  4. #24
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    Default Re: ATF Agent takes pics of all log book pages

    Quote Originally Posted by Emptymag View Post
    No. You don't seem to understand what I explained.
    based on the first video the app that the woman was using was supposed to be some open source app anyone can get through apple or googles app stores. she showed the app the owner. now if it is a government app that saves no data to the actual device and pushes it to a cloud or a server that changes some of the issue but why not use the other government issued phone for the same purpose?

  5. #25
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    Default Re: ATF Agent takes pics of all log book pages

    I have no idea.
    I don't know what phone she used and I doubt anyone else does either.

    I didn't intend to make such a big deal out of this, but people have a tendency to get all fired up over lies and or inaccurate info and then look like fools once the truth is revealed.
    If she was using her personal phone, she should be in prison.
    If not, she was likely breaking no law that I'm aware of. Not that we should accept the data collection as being "OK", but as I recall, they can and do record this data legally.
    I called to check my ZIP CODE!....DY-NO-MITE!!!

  6. #26
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    Default Re: ATF Agent takes pics of all log book pages

    Quote Originally Posted by Emptymag View Post
    If she was using her personal phone, she should be in prison.
    If not, she was likely breaking no law that I'm aware of. Not that we should accept the data collection as being "OK", but as I recall, they can and do record this data legally.
    I am not a lawyer, but this sure seems like a registration to me. If she were only taking photos of problematic 4473s, that would be a different story.

    S.49 - Firearms Owners' Protection Act99th Congress (1985-1986)

    "Amends the rulemaking authority of the Secretary to provide that no regulation may require: (1) the transfer of records required under this Act to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State; or (2) the establishment of any system of registration of firearms, firearm owners, or firearm transactions. Requires a 90-day public comment period for proposed regulations."
    "Russian warship, go f--- yourself."

  7. #27
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    Default Re: ATF Agent takes pics of all log book pages

    Was there ever an ATF agent fired for illegal activity?

  8. #28
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    Default Re: ATF Agent takes pics of all log book pages

    Quote Originally Posted by Emptymag View Post
    I have no idea.
    I don't know what phone she used and I doubt anyone else does either.

    I didn't intend to make such a big deal out of this, but people have a tendency to get all fired up over lies and or inaccurate info and then look like fools once the truth is revealed.
    If she was using her personal phone, she should be in prison.
    If not, she was likely breaking no law that I'm aware of. Not that we should accept the data collection as being "OK", but as I recall, they can and do record this data legally.
    i get what your saying. the problem with this video is we don't get everything that went on and are going by one view point. the view point is concerning for gun owners based on the owners interaction with her. there are to many things that we do not know the truth about. was she using a personal phone, maybe. was she taking photos of every record in the books, yes. do we know why she was doing what she was doing, no. will we ever find out why, maybe.

    the question becomes what can be done about this. it seems that all we can really do is file a conduct complaint and maybe forward this to gun friends reps and let them raise concerns.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: ATF Agent takes pics of all log book pages

    Actually, I'm not so sure that her recording the mistakes on the ATF forms was unlawful. Her job with the BATFE is to monitor gun shops for following proper procedures and to record those instances where mistakes were made. If mistakes were made, they are in noncompliance with the law and the agency's responsibility is to correct that. In order to correct that, a file must be made in order to document those instances where mistakes were made. In order to do that, she would either need to photocopy each sheet with a mistake, or photograph it. Since all of the fed.gov has gone "paperless", she could photocopy, but then she'd have to scan to .pdf back at the office. She likely just had a .pdf converter on her phone. They are commonplace everywhere in the world except, maybe, on this forum.

    The big mistake that I do see, as DomerDad pointed out, is what vulnerabilities does she expose herself to by recording evidence for and enforcement action on her personal phone. That is just dimwitted and a rookie mistake. None of our compliance staff are allowed to do that, for good reason. It would be unsavory if the ribald memes, texts, and general asshattery that is contained on my phone was ever required to be released in court, and my phone is tame compared to many folks that I know.

    So, I don't believe that what she has done constitutes " a registry", and I don't believe it to be illegal. However, I would question her ability to perform her enforcement duties reasonably, effectively, and respectfully.
    Malo accepto stultus sapit

  10. #30
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    Default Re: ATF Agent takes pics of all log book pages

    This whole topic has been discussed when they wanted to make the forms "single sided".
    I don't recall the details, but the big stink was that it WAS "harder" for them to collect info when they were two sided, but by making the form a single sheet, it would make it so much easier for them to copy the info, or as our team puts it, "create a registry".

    I could be wrong, but I don't think there's anything illegal about what they are doing.

    Despicable? Yes. Backhanded? Yes. Dirty, low-down pieces of shit? Yes, but I don't think it's illegal.

    I'd be happy to be wrong here...
    I called to check my ZIP CODE!....DY-NO-MITE!!!

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