12 guage 00 buck question

**Delkal** · July 16th, 2022, 05:17 PM

A 9 inch pattern of 8 30 cal balls hitting you is devastating and no one is going to survive a chest shot. If you are worried about over penetration for home defense distances think about using #4 or#6 birdshot. Birdshot will still penetrate a few sheets of drywall but can be just as effective at home distances. At close range you hit them with hundreds of pellets in a tight group turning everything into hamburger. I doubt that kind of wound can be fixed and I doubt anyone survived a chest shot at 20 ft.

There are a number of good videos testing bird shot for home defense on the net. I doubt after watching a few you will think you are under gunned using them.

**Spaceballs** · July 16th, 2022, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Delkal

A 9 inch pattern of 8 30 cal balls hitting you is devastating and no one is going to survive a chest shot. If you are worried about over penetration for home defense distances think about using #4 or#6 birdshot. Birdshot will still penetrate a few sheets of drywall but can be just as effective at home distances. At close range you hit them with hundreds of pellets in a tight group turning everything into hamburger. I doubt that kind of wound can be fixed and I doubt anyone survived a chest shot at 20 ft.

There are a number of good videos testing bird shot for home defense on the net. I doubt after watching a few you will think you are under gunned using them.

I am going to hard core disagree with that

This backs me up

http://john1911.com/no-birdshot-does...-self-defense/

Duck Cheney shot a guy in the face with bird shot. That dude is fine.

There a a disturbingly large amount of images on Google of birdshit wounds where people lived with barely surface level flesh wounds.

I'm sure it hurts. A lot. I am sure it would blind you if you got hit right in the eyes.

But if I HAD to choose anything to be shot by.... birdshot would be at the very top of my list.

**Delkal** · July 16th, 2022, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Spaceballs

I am going to hard core disagree with that

This backs me up

http://john1911.com/no-birdshot-does...-self-defense/

Duck Cheney shot a guy in the face with bird shot. That dude is fine.

There a a disturbingly large amount of images on Google of birdshit wounds where people lived with barely surface level flesh wounds.

I'm sure it hurts. A lot. I am sure it would blind you if you got hit right in the eyes.

But if I HAD to choose anything to be shot by.... birdshot would be at the very top of my list.

I agree birdshot spreads and loses a lot of energy after 100 feet and that is a good thing if you are considering overpenetration. But all of those patterns in the link were from much longer distances than you would have in your house. At 15-20 feet the pellets are just starting to leave the wad and the grouping are typically 2-3 inches.

But don't believe me....... just search "birdshot home defense" and you will find dozens of good videos that show its performance in real world situations. Before you say birdshot doesn't work see what it can do for yourself.

**JenniferG** · July 16th, 2022, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by JAKIII

That's generally outside of 10 yards though, right?

Ok if you're shooting someone in the yard, I guess.

The OP said he had a 9" spread at 7 yds (21 ft) with the Remington shells. I'm pretty certain that means he's using a cylinder bore barrel with no choke which is designed to open the pattern as quickly as possible. Back in the day these types of shotguns with those type of barrels were called "Riot guns". Can you imagine the police opening fire on a crowd with 00 Buck today? The only way of knowing what your particular shotgun is going shoot with any particular load is to pattern it. Also, it has been shown that the 8 pellet loads are less likely to throw a 9th shot flyer. Examples start at 5:03

**Spaceballs** · July 16th, 2022, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by JenniferG

The OP said he had a 9" spread at 7 yds (21 ft) with the Remington shells. I'm pretty certain that means he's using a cylinder bore barrel with no choke which is designed to open the pattern as quickly as possible. Back in the day these types of shotguns with those type of barrels were called "Riot guns". Can you imagine the police opening fire on a crowd with 00 Buck today? The only way of knowing what your particular shotgun is going shoot any particular load is to pattern it. Also, it has been shown that the 8 pellet loads are less likely to throw a 9th shot flyer. Examples start at 5:03

Yes. Pretty sure the Remington police barrels are no choke.

I do have a longer barrel that I keep on a 2nd 870 I got a while back as a trap gun. That one has a mod choke installed (which can easily be changed to something else)

Guess I need to run that one out to the range and see what the non flight control buck does with that. For science!

**Spaceballs** · July 16th, 2022, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by Delkal

I agree birdshot spreads and loses a lot of energy after 100 feet and that is a good thing if you are considering overpenetration. But all of those patterns in the link were from much longer distances than you would have in your house. At 15-20 feet the pellets are just starting to leave the wad and the grouping are typically 2-3 inches.

But don't believe me....... just search "birdshot home defense" and you will find dozens of good videos that show its performance in real world situations. Before you say birdshot doesn't work see what it can do for yourself.

Just because it might work doesn't mean you can count on it to work reliably in a life or death situation.

Here is ballistic gel testing of bird vs buck

https://www.ammoman.com/blog/birdshot-for-home-defense/

An intruder wearing a heavy jacket is likely to stop a good amount of bird shot. It's CERTAINLY going to slow it down which if going to further limit it's penetration into the chest cavity.

Meanwhile buckshot is going to penetration. It's going to kill the bad guy. A lot.

And with a properly set up shot gun or using proper loads like the Federal with the flight control that was consistently putting 2 inch groups at HD distances with no flyers, why would you choose a maybe round like birdshot over a "Yup. No doubt about it." load like buck?

I may be new to understanding how to tighten groups using chokes but I know enough about would channels to know that 8 rounds that go through the strenum and almost to the back of a torso is going to be more effective than 100 rounds that go into 1 inch or less.

Yes. The birdshot could cause you to bleed out or cause enough damage that you eventually sucumb. But buck is going to remove an intruder's heart from the equation instantly. The threat to my house will end immediately.

For an intruder who stands a good chance of being high and able to ignore pain, I want something he can't ignore. No amount of heroin and bath salts let's the body ignore a total loss of blood pressure.

**cdi** · July 16th, 2022, 07:44 PM

This topic comes up from time to time. Don*t know if anyone mentioned it yet but buckshot penetrates houses like crazy- as do most pistol rounds. The shotgun has a metric f- ton of disadvantages for home defense. If you really need a home defense weapon, go with a short barreled ar with a lightweight Hollow point type round. Among other things, the rounds break quickly in building materials but penetrate soft armor like turd through a goose.

**Curmudgeon** · July 16th, 2022, 07:47 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHqB2t-DGb8

Comedian Bill Burr

**Spaceballs** · July 16th, 2022, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by cdi

This topic comes up from time to time. Don*t know if anyone mentioned it yet but buckshot penetrates houses like crazy- as do most pistol rounds. The shotgun has a metric f- ton of disadvantages for home defense. If you really need a home defense weapon, go with a short barreled ar with a lightweight Hollow point type round. Among other things, the rounds break quickly in building materials but penetrate soft armor like turd through a goose.

I like to have options.

**JenniferG** · July 16th, 2022, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Spaceballs

Yes. Pretty sure the Remington police barrels are no choke.

I do have a longer barrel that I keep on a 2nd 870 I got a while back as a trap gun. That one has a mod choke installed (which can easily be changed to something else)

Guess I need to run that one out to the range and see what the non flight control buck does with that. For science!

My 870 Police has a 18" barrel with an improved cylinder fixed choke. So far I've only shot slugs out of it and they're good out to about 50 yards. My Wincher 22" barrel with a modified choke likes the Remington Slugger and My Remington Police 18" barrel likes the Winchester as far as accuracy goes. That's how it works with scatterguns. Oh yeah, two blasts out on the balcony...