Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: Question Concerning Keeping Bill of Sales/Receipts...

    This thread has already shown examples of THE two least trustworthy sources of gun law knowledge - gun shops and the pO-leece.
    I called to check my ZIP CODE!....DY-NO-MITE!!!

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
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    East side of the ANF, Pennsylvania
    (Elk County)
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    Default Re: Question Concerning Keeping Bill of Sales/Receipts...

    Just before Covid hit, I got a phone call from an ATF agent saying that I had purchased a certain handgun, and asking to whom did I sell it. He gave me the s/n, so it appeared to be a legit call. I told him it would be one of two FFLs, and I would check my records when I got home that evening. He said he was calling from his cell, so call anytime.

    After checking my records and with the FFL to whom I had sold the handgun (and telling HIM of an impending phone call from ATF), I called the agent back and told him the FFL to whom I had sold the gun. He said thanks, that jibes with our records. He said that a female had purchased the handgun from the FFL, but the handgun was confiscated from her firearms-prohibited felon BF during a for-cause traffic stop. They had to figure out if it was a straw purchase, or if the guy stole it from her. He thanked me and hung up. The FFL did get a call to confirm the sale to the woman, who passed PICS and got an approval number.

    Noah
    Wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times.

  3. #13
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    Mar 2012
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    South Central, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Question Concerning Keeping Bill of Sales/Receipts...

    In the first place, they have no way of knowing how many guns you sold person to person, as far as selling long guns. As said above, no legal requirement to report these transactions.
    μολων λαβε

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Among the Trees, Pennsylvania
    (Lehigh County)
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    Default Re: Question Concerning Keeping Bill of Sales/Receipts...

    Having recently sold a couple handguns to my LGS, and said handguns having been purchased in a state with an actual handgun registry (and living in a city where, even if your purchase is on the state's very restrictive "safe handgun" list, if it is prohibited for sale by said city's ordinance, and despite purchasing in a neighboring city, they send you a very nasty letter letting you know they "know what you purchased") I decided to keep this bill of sale, and photocopied in triplicate.

    Two scenarios I envision:

    One, if you should encounter law enforcement or other .gov entity, for any other reason, and they start comparing your collection to their 'not a registry' list, it might prove convenient to be able to show said bill of sale.

    (By way of reference, at the time some of those handguns were purchased, that state's Attorney General was reported in the news to have sent her DOJ officers on warrantless gun-collecting, door-knocking parties, after hours and OT paid with Dealer Record of Sale fund $. They were reportedly using a list of "prohibited" people for their address book. She has recently 'attained' a very lofty Federal .gov) title.)

    Two, and I am just speculating here... if something were to happen with "your" (old) firearm and it has not yet been, or never was, entered into said LGS' bound book, you may want to be able to direct said curiosity seekers further on down the road, so to speak. Not trying to cast shade on FFLs, but is it possible there are a couple bad apples? Statistics suggest yes.

    I am not a lawyer, and just my 2 from an admittedly BS and nickel-bracelet-pain averse 2A supporter.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Phoenixville, Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
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    Default Re: Question Concerning Keeping Bill of Sales/Receipts...

    So if they knew the FFL sold the handgun to the girl, I wonder why did they bothered tracing backwards to you to verify you sold it to the FFL? Seems like all the crap happened after it left your hands. Had you not been able to verify selling the handgun to the FFL either because you lost the receipt or forgot, does that change the case against the girl/felon boyfriend?

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
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    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: Question Concerning Keeping Bill of Sales/Receipts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bang View Post
    That is not legal. Being old, I have a number of guns obtained pre-1968, some bring-backs from WWII or given to me by my long-deceased father. Nothing in law says one needs to prove ownership. If law enforcement wants to enforce law, they need to follow the law and it has to prove you are not the owner.
    I agree, try to argue the point on the side of the highway.

  7. #17
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    Jan 2015
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    Among the Trees, Pennsylvania
    (Lehigh County)
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    Default Re: Question Concerning Keeping Bill of Sales/Receipts...

    Quote Originally Posted by sbmania View Post
    So if they knew the FFL sold the handgun to the girl, I wonder why did they bothered tracing backwards to you to verify you sold it to the FFL? Seems like all the crap happened after it left your hands. Had you not been able to verify selling the handgun to the FFL either because you lost the receipt or forgot, does that change the case against the girl/felon boyfriend?
    Sure Noah will likely answer/clarify also... but see my post just above yours:

    Whether the "Prohibited Felon boyfriend" from Noah's situation was alone in the vehicle with said firearm, or it was just in a glovebox or under a seat (and possibly even if it was in the woman's waistband) at the time of LEO discovery, they (ATF) may have wished to pursue Noah for illegally selling to a prohibited person and he was luckily able to prove to whom he actually sold it, and as a Handgun the transferring FFL was responsible for the due diligence on her eligibility for firearms purchase/possession.

    While the assistant to a former U.S. AG (who is still in Contempt of Congress as far as I know) testified in a Senate hearing that "We don't [have time?] to prosecute paper crimes" (pursue straw purchasers based on their 4473's), that doesn't mean that the BATFE has NO interest in pursing and charging (and at least 'prohibiting') as many law abiding citizens as possible.

    Again, I am no lawyer, but my 2 includes the firm belief that my former state's methodologies of gun 'removal' are coming to a Commonwealth near you as soon as they get the 'right' people in place.

    Edit: It is the former U.S. AG who is likely still in Contempt of Congress
    Last edited by RTF92.5; July 13th, 2022 at 09:56 AM. Reason: clarification

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Upper Darby, Pennsylvania
    (Delaware County)
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    Default Re: Question Concerning Keeping Bill of Sales/Receipts...

    Quote Originally Posted by RTF92.5 View Post
    Edit: It is the former U.S. AG who is likely still in Contempt of Congress
    One would hope that regular poofa denizens wouldn't need to be told this...

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
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    East side of the ANF, Pennsylvania
    (Elk County)
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    Default Re: Question Concerning Keeping Bill of Sales/Receipts...

    Quote Originally Posted by sbmania View Post
    So if they knew the FFL sold the handgun to the girl, I wonder why did they bothered tracing backwards to you to verify you sold it to the FFL? Seems like all the crap happened after it left your hands. Had you not been able to verify selling the handgun to the FFL either because you lost the receipt or forgot, does that change the case against the girl/felon boyfriend?
    IMO and impression, ATF were tracing from both ends and just wanted confirmation of the line of traceability. As I understood it, both the FFL and I were initially contacted at almost the same time, within hours of each other. ATF could have gotten the info from either of us, sure. And while that may have been sufficient ("Yes, I got the handgun from Mr. Zark, and sold it to Ms. Doe."), perhaps they are just thoroughgoing bastards and want to complete the chain.

    Noah
    Wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Quakertown, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: Question Concerning Keeping Bill of Sales/Receipts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt.K View Post
    One would hope that regular poofa denizens wouldn't need to be told this...
    Accuse your enemy of what you are doing as you are doing it to create confusion -Karl Marx

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