Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #31
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    Glenmoore, Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
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    Default Re: THIS INFURIATES ME!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JAKIII View Post
    Law suits are already filed against the Bill, which legal pundits have said is unconstitutional. SCOTUS may choose to add to their docket for review and strike it.

    The sky is not falling... step down off the ledge.

    The post was meant as sarcasm.
    Quote Originally Posted by JenniferG View Post
    Because it's been deemed unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court so that may have something to do with our objections to new gun laws.
    SCOTUS hasn't ruled on the Bill, yet.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
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    somewhere, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: THIS INFURIATES ME!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JAKIII View Post
    Law suits are already filed against the Bill, which legal pundits have said is unconstitutional. SCOTUS may choose to add to their docket for review and strike it.

    The sky is not falling... step down off the ledge.
    No. People need to know what's at stake. Clearly, not enough people are aware and righteously outraged since the Federal law was just passed and 19 states already have this. We can't afford to just shut up and wait and see what happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAKIII View Post
    The post was meant as sarcasm.
    We couldn't tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAKIII View Post
    A Judge would have to issue the warrant. And "I don't like Photon Guy," wouldn't pass the Photon Guy is dangerous smell yes.
    In Florida (the state with the highest number of Red Flag orders), 97% of initial Red Flag petitions have been granted. If you think no one has been wrapped up in that who didn't deserve it, I've got a bridge to sell you.
    I am not a lawyer.

  3. #33
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    Jan 2022
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    Carlilse, Pennsylvania
    (Cumberland County)
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    Default Re: THIS INFURIATES ME!!!!!

    Yesterday I spoke with my state representative Barbra Gliem 199th district, and I'm not worried about this legislation. Neither is she.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: THIS INFURIATES ME!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JAKIII View Post
    Law suits are already filed against the Bill...
    Wow! I didn't even know legislation could be a defendant!

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Quakertown, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: THIS INFURIATES ME!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phynixdaybreak View Post
    Yesterday I spoke with my state representative Barbra Gliem 199th district, and I'm not worried about this legislation. Neither is she.
    Whew! That eases all my fears.

    Innocent until proven guilty is an outdated overrated guideline anyway.
    Accuse your enemy of what you are doing as you are doing it to create confusion -Karl Marx

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    ..., Pennsylvania
    (Juniata County)
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    Default Re: THIS INFURIATES ME!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by buckengr View Post
    PA does not have Red Flag laws of the form currently being discussed/proposed. We do have Protection From Abuse (PFA) orders which are routinely abused in divorce proceedings to gain leverage over a spouse.

    We also have civil commitment procedures which are totally different since those have (more) due process protections and require the subject to get some sort of mental health evaluation/treatment rather than just taking away all of their guns and leaving them free to harm themselves or others via any number of other ways.

    Practically speaking, Red Flag laws are designed to be a weapon to target people who have unpopular political opinions or to settle (escalate) personal disputes. They don't do anything that existing laws can't already do better with more protections for civil rights.


    Respectfully there are not protections during an involuntary commitment. Anyone can make unsubstantiated claims, and if they are believed, you are going to lose your guns in Pennsylvania and be Locked up for 72 hours to 10*days. They do not need or come close to meeting the standards for due process, so a 302 is not federally prohibiting according to multiple federal court rulings, however you*ll have to get a lawyer and spend a lot of money or get your rights back federally, and then move to another State.

    If someone tries to 302, day often, politely, that you are willing to go seek treatment VOLUNTARILY, and to at you would like to check yourself in as a Voluntary 201. Call a lawyer. A civil rights lawyer would be best, but any lawyer. State law requires them to allow lawyers to practice in a hospital. Make sure you lawyer reviews your chart for accurate documentation of you voluntary mental health commitment, because you want help and no one is making you go.

    Because you*re getting locked up one way or the other. That is just how it is*one way just ruins you life more.


    And yes. I have personally witnessed people (generally liberals) abuse 302s.
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Ercildoun, Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
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    Default Re: THIS INFURIATES ME!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by PAMedic=F|A= View Post
    Respectfully there are not protections during an involuntary commitment. Anyone can make unsubstantiated claims, and if they are believed, you are going to lose your guns in Pennsylvania and be Locked up for 72 hours to 10*days. They do not need or come close to meeting the standards for due process, so a 302 is not federally prohibiting according to multiple federal court rulings, however you*ll have to get a lawyer and spend a lot of money or get your rights back federally, and then move to another State.

    If someone tries to 302, day often, politely, that you are willing to go seek treatment VOLUNTARILY, and to at you would like to check yourself in as a Voluntary 201. Call a lawyer. A civil rights lawyer would be best, but any lawyer. State law requires them to allow lawyers to practice in a hospital. Make sure you lawyer reviews your chart for accurate documentation of you voluntary mental health commitment, because you want help and no one is making you go.

    Because you*re getting locked up one way or the other. That is just how it is*one way just ruins you life more.


    And yes. I have personally witnessed people (generally liberals) abuse 302s.
    It is a known fact that if a law can be abused by government to attain more power for themselves it will be abused.
    Corruption is the default behavior of government officials. JPC

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Too close to Philly!, Pennsylvania
    (Delaware County)
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    Default Re: THIS INFURIATES ME!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Photon Guy View Post
    Because you can be red flagged without committing domestic battery on your wife.
    We all know that No one would Ever Lie, just to get even with someone they dislike.
    Especially, if the Dislikee would never know who the Disliker IS.
    That would be deceitful, corrupt, dishonest!!
    Our brethren are already in the Field, why stand we here Idle?
    Si vis pacem, Para bellum
    To every man upon this earth, death cometh, soon or late

  9. #39
    PickingPA Guest

    Default Re: THIS INFURIATES ME!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by DonBiase View Post
    We all know that No one would Ever Lie, just to get even with someone they dislike.
    Especially, if the Dislikee would never know who the Disliker IS.
    That would be deceitful, corrupt, dishonest!!
    Pffft

    I could see people ON HERE redflagging others ON HERE over a stupid internet argument. There was a threat made a few months ago along these lines.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
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    somewhere, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: THIS INFURIATES ME!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by PAMedic=F|A= View Post
    Respectfully there are not protections during an involuntary commitment. Anyone can make unsubstantiated claims, and if they are believed, you are going to lose your guns in Pennsylvania and be Locked up for 72 hours to 10*days. They do not need or come close to meeting the standards for due process, so a 302 is not federally prohibiting according to multiple federal court rulings, however you*ll have to get a lawyer and spend a lot of money or get your rights back federally, and then move to another State.

    If someone tries to 302, day often, politely, that you are willing to go seek treatment VOLUNTARILY, and to at you would like to check yourself in as a Voluntary 201. Call a lawyer. A civil rights lawyer would be best, but any lawyer. State law requires them to allow lawyers to practice in a hospital. Make sure you lawyer reviews your chart for accurate documentation of you voluntary mental health commitment, because you want help and no one is making you go.

    Because you*re getting locked up one way or the other. That is just how it is*one way just ruins you life more.


    And yes. I have personally witnessed people (generally liberals) abuse 302s.
    Thank you for your comments -- I think I got a little careless with the wording of my explanation. I also don't have the first hand knowledge of how this is applied in practice, so I appreciate the insight.

    I absolutely believe that existing involuntary commitment procedures also violate due process, but I had been under the impression that they offered slightly more procedural safeguards than Red Flag laws, since it isn't purely a process of the court.

    I had generally assumed that as long as the subject follows the strategy you outlined regarding opting in to voluntary evaluation/treatment and makes judicious use of a lawyer during that time, they could generally avoid the involuntary 302 and lifetime prohibition.

    I assumed that if you weren't actually a nutjob, your chances of avoiding getting railroaded would be slightly better in the long run, since your "treatment" involves actual doctors and that might require meeting a higher bar.

    I also assumed you and your lawyer got to at least attend every hearing on your case, if you are lucid and assert your rights (i.e. no ex parte hearings). Is this wrong?

    Obviously, this is still bad, but it seems less likely to go the wrong way permanently if you keep your wits about you.
    I am not a lawyer.

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