Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Plains, Pennsylvania
    (Luzerne County)
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    Default Permitium Online LTCF Application & 6109 (g) Violations

    Good evening free Pennsylvanians!

    I'm a lifelong resident of Luzerne County PA, and an LTCF holder pretty consistently going on 20 years. I remember when you walked into the Sheriff's office, filled out the form, paid the fee, and walked out with a freshly laminated LTCF. Funny how the advent of online permit processing somehow makes that look just so incredibly efficient.

    So, after a brief lapse, about 6 months or so beyond expiration, I decided to use the new online process "powered by Permitium" to submit a "new" application for LTCF. I submitted my application on 5/1, checked the status daily, then received notification via email today, 5/10, that "My Permit Has Been Issued", much to my confusion as it was nowhere to be seen :sarcasm:. At this point they ask that you use their online scheduling system to choose a date a time for your appointment to have your photo taken and retrieve your LTCF. Upon doing so, I discovered that low and behold the earliest available date was 6/29.

    So what's wrong with this picture? Well, after careful review of my calendar, it appears that 6/29, is actually 60 days from the date that the Sheriff's office first received my application, 5/1. Based on my reading of the law, this is a clear violation of 6109 paragraph (g), which states:

    (g) Grant or denial of license.--Upon the receipt of an application for a license to carry a firearm, the sheriff shall, within 45 days, issue or refuse to issue a license on the basis of the investigation under subsection (d) and the accuracy of the information contained in the application. If the sheriff refuses to issue a license, the sheriff shall notify the applicant in writing of the refusal and the specific reasons. The notice shall be sent by certified mail to the applicant at the address set forth in the application.
    The only way that I see that would permit them to exceed that 45 day time frame explicitly defined in the law, would be if they were to allow for the email notification, when printed out, to serve as a valid temporary license, to be accepted as proof of a valid license and carry the same validity as the official license until such time as their scheduling allows for them to officially provide you with your official license. Not issuing the license within the maximum limited time frame allowed by law is a clear violation of the law, and an unlawful deprivation of rights at no fault of the applicant.

    I think matters such as this, while they may seem trivial to some, are critically important to insist they be address, to ensure that our rights are not subjected further to arbitrary abridgements wherever they can get away with them under subjective standards and reasoning, and where the law itself has not already so wrongfully capitulated to the abridgement. I'm hoping to find amongst the community of free and responsible PA gun owners and gun rights advocates, enough momentum and support to give the necessary push back that I believe this deserves, and to at a very minimum insist that any such counties where this violation has occurred, be pressed to make a clear and definitive statement on their position in relation to it. I believe they should be required to state clearly if their intent here is to blatantly violate the law, or if they intend to honor such documentation as a printed copy of the email citing valid issuance, as a valid permit.

    I do want to make special note that the subject line of the email which confirms your application approval is exactly "Your Permit Has Been Issued", which I believe to be a very dishonest way of attempting to be able to claim compliance with the law, though I suspect they are hoping that nobody makes too much of a stink about it.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Belly of the BEAST, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: Permitium Online LTCF Application & 6109 (g) Violations

    Quote Originally Posted by chunk_norris View Post
    Good evening free Pennsylvanians!

    I'm a lifelong resident of Luzerne County PA, and an LTCF holder pretty consistently going on 20 years. I remember when you walked into the Sheriff's office, filled out the form, paid the fee, and walked out with a freshly laminated LTCF. Funny how the advent of online permit processing somehow makes that look just so incredibly efficient.

    So, after a brief lapse, about 6 months or so beyond expiration, I decided to use the new online process "powered by Permitium" to submit a "new" application for LTCF. I submitted my application on 5/1, checked the status daily, then received notification via email today, 5/10, that "My Permit Has Been Issued", much to my confusion as it was nowhere to be seen :sarcasm:. At this point they ask that you use their online scheduling system to choose a date a time for your appointment to have your photo taken and retrieve your LTCF. Upon doing so, I discovered that low and behold the earliest available date was 6/29.

    So what's wrong with this picture? Well, after careful review of my calendar, it appears that 6/29, is actually 60 days from the date that the Sheriff's office first received my application, 5/1. Based on my reading of the law, this is a clear violation of 6109 paragraph (g), which states:



    The only way that I see that would permit them to exceed that 45 day time frame explicitly defined in the law, would be if they were to allow for the email notification, when printed out, to serve as a valid temporary license, to be accepted as proof of a valid license and carry the same validity as the official license until such time as their scheduling allows for them to officially provide you with your official license. Not issuing the license within the maximum limited time frame allowed by law is a clear violation of the law, and an unlawful deprivation of rights at no fault of the applicant.

    I think matters such as this, while they may seem trivial to some, are critically important to insist they be address, to ensure that our rights are not subjected further to arbitrary abridgements wherever they can get away with them under subjective standards and reasoning, and where the law itself has not already so wrongfully capitulated to the abridgement. I'm hoping to find amongst the community of free and responsible PA gun owners and gun rights advocates, enough momentum and support to give the necessary push back that I believe this deserves, and to at a very minimum insist that any such counties where this violation has occurred, be pressed to make a clear and definitive statement on their position in relation to it. I believe they should be required to state clearly if their intent here is to blatantly violate the law, or if they intend to honor such documentation as a printed copy of the email citing valid issuance, as a valid permit.

    I do want to make special note that the subject line of the email which confirms your application approval is exactly "Your Permit Has Been Issued", which I believe to be a very dishonest way of attempting to be able to claim compliance with the law, though I suspect they are hoping that nobody makes too much of a stink about it.
    Make a stink. Don't let this stand.
    This is a violation of the law and depravation of due rights.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
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    Default Re: Permitium Online LTCF Application & 6109 (g) Violations

    It's it 45 days or weekdays? If it's days they are out of line. If it's weekdays it's within the 45 days
    . The way it's worded sounds like days to me though.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
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    Montco, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: Permitium Online LTCF Application & 6109 (g) Violations

    It's calender days.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2022
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    Plains, Pennsylvania
    (Luzerne County)
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    Default Re: Permitium Online LTCF Application & 6109 (g) Violations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilikebuckets View Post
    It's it 45 days or weekdays? If it's days they are out of line. If it's weekdays it's within the 45 days
    . The way it's worded sounds like days to me though.
    The language in the law clearly states "45 days". There are no modifiers on that statement, and I do not believe that in matters of law you would typically find any, as matters of law are effective on all days regardless of who is working or not. I'm not an attorney, but that's my understanding. It's not like applying some arbitrary standard set by some crappy company like "within 2 business days"...or my personal favorite "within 48 business hours" (6 days lol).


    *Update: Another person I know who encountered the same problem, but is one day behind me "in line", received a response from them via email. Basically they gave an avoidance answer, that in my opinion both reveals that they know they are in violation of the law, and are really hoping nobody pushes it too hard. Theirs was a renewal, whereas mine was a "new" application, but that is irrelevant in terms of the law and timeframe. They had inquired as to whether or not their permit was considered "issued" right now, or if it was not until they physically received it, and the LCSD responded by saying that the expired permit has a "6 month grace period, for exactly that reason". Of course, that fails the logic test when you realize that there's no way to give said "grace period" to new applicants, while at the same time they're sort of admitting that NO, the permit right now is not considered "issued", and obviously they must be in violation of the law as they cannot just knowingly violate it for new applicants, but intentionally grant renewals a special "grace period" for the purpose of remaining in compliance with the law. Basically, they put their foot in their mouth, and they did it in writing.

    I'm drafting an email right now to really press the issue, and force an official definitive response. I think they know where they're at in this, and once they realize that they're going to have to address it, they'll likely just say "your permit is good as long as you got the approval notice". After all it is linked to your DL/ID now anyway, so really the entire exercise of making you come in to get a new photo and cheaply laminated card just for that is completely self-defeating. Even if they wanted to mail you a new card, they could just use your DMV photo, but you know there's no inefficiency quite like government inefficiency. I mostly just want to force them into making a definitive statement about it, because they shouldn't think that they should be able to just violate the explicit limitations on their time frame as defined in the law and "hope nobody notices". At a minimum, they should be required to state clearly on the application process something to the effect of "your permit is considered valid upon receipt of any approval of your application".

  6. #6
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    (Luzerne County)
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    Default Re: Permitium Online LTCF Application & 6109 (g) Violations

    ** Update **

    I sent them an email requesting clarification on their position as to the time frame and date on which my permit is to be considered legally issued and effective. Wanted to share a sanitized version of the email as a template for others to use if/when they encounter the same violation.

    Email addresses for Luzerne County: brian.szumski@luzernecounty.org, LCSDPermits@luzernecounty.org


    ATT: (NAME_OF_SHERIFF), (COUNTY_NAME) County Sheriff's Office, et al.

    Good Morning,

    The purpose of this email is to request clarification from the (COUNTY_NAME) County Sheriff's Office, regarding the issuance of a License to Carry Firearms under PA Title 18 6109, with respect to the recently adopted Permitium system and operational changes for the processing of such applications, in place as of (DATE_OF_COUNTY_ADOPTION_OF_SYSTEM).

    As per the forwarded email communication below, and the referenced order number therein ( ORDER_NUMBER ), I submitted an application on (DATE_OF_APPLICATION), via the Permitium service as provided by the (COUNTY_NAME) County Sheriff's Office for a NEW License to Carry Firearms. My application was received, processed, and has been approved as of (DATE_OF_APPROVAL). I received the aforementioned email notification, including the explicit subject line of "Your Permit Has Been Issued" on (DATE_TIME_OF_EMAIL_RECEIPT). Included in the body of the email message is the basic instruction and link to connect to the scheduling system provided by the (COUNTY_NAME) County Sheriff's Office via the Permitium software, to proceed with scheduling an appointment for the retrieval of my License to Carry Firearms. Upon accessing the scheduling system, I became aware that the earliest available date offered by the Luzerne County Sheriff's Office via the Permitium scheduling software, for scheduling my appointment, was on (AVAILABILITY_DATE), (TOTAL_DAYS_FROM_APPLICATION_DATE) days from the date that my application was first received by the (COUNTY_NAME) County Sheriff's Office.

    In accordance with PA Title 18 6109 paragraph (g), the time frame made available by the (COUNTY_NAME) County Sheriff's Office, through the use of the systems and operational processes provided for and under its management, to complete the issuance of my License to Carry Firearms clearly exceeds the maximum statutorily permitted time frame for issuance.

    PA Title 18 6109
    ...
    (g) Grant or denial of license.--Upon the receipt of an application for a license to carry a firearm, the sheriff shall, within 45 days, issue or refuse to issue a license on the basis of the investigation under subsection (d) and the accuracy of the information contained in the application. If the sheriff refuses to issue a license, the sheriff shall notify the applicant in writing of the refusal and the specific reasons. The notice shall be sent by certified mail to the applicant at the address set forth in the application.


    Please provide the necessary clarification, to advise as to the status of my License to Carry Firearms, the date upon which it is to be considered legally issued and effective, and the means or mechanism by which the (COUNTY_NAME) County Sheriff's Office is providing to myself, the licensee, to show valid proof of licensure wherever it may be requested or required of me under the law, within the maximum allowable time frame of 45 days, as explicitly defined under Title 18 6109 paragraph (g).

    Please provide any relevant correspondence to me with respect to this matter, in writing, by replying directly to this email.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    next to my neighbor, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Permitium Online LTCF Application & 6109 (g) Violations

    Just keep carrying.
    FJB

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Broomall, Pennsylvania
    (Delaware County)
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    Default Re: Permitium Online LTCF Application & 6109 (g) Violations

    Is the online system, Permitium, a statewide thing? I used it in Delco and it was good. My son tried to apply with it in Chesco and was told that they had on on line application. WTF?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    Holland, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: Permitium Online LTCF Application & 6109 (g) Violations

    Quote Originally Posted by bug View Post
    Is the online system, Permitium, a statewide thing? I used it in Delco and it was good. My son tried to apply with it in Chesco and was told that they had on on line application. WTF?
    Bucks has it. I recently renewed, but I filled out the Word doc, printed it out and brought it to the Levittown annex. Walked in and walked out 15 minutes later with my license. My daughter just turned 21 and will go next week to get hers - same procedure.

    Bill

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Phila, Pennsylvania
    (Philadelphia County)
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    Default Re: Permitium Online LTCF Application & 6109 (g) Violations

    Phila uses it, and it has made the process much easier and quicker.
    But that's comparing apples to apes.
    Wheaties aren't made out of the same stuff today as they were 40 years ago.

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