Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    Plains, Pennsylvania
    (Luzerne County)
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Permitium Online LTCF Application & 6109 (g) Violations

    Wanted to provide an update.

    I did receive a response from the Luzerne County Sheriff's office, and they were very professional and polite. They scheduled my appointment for me manually, to ensure that my permit was issued within the 45 day limit as required by law.

    The Lieutenant who took care of the issue for me was extremely professional, and seemed to take the issue very seriously. We had a very respectful email exchange, which I appreciated very much. He seems to be a good man, and an honorable officer of the law. He did inform me that they would be reviewing their scheduling system and addressing any instances where people are restricted from obtaining their permit by more than 45 days, which at this point I imagine is a big task. I hope that is the case, and that they are able to find a suitable solution to fulfill all of those applications lawfully.

    The clerk who processes the actual issuance of the permit seemed to be quite annoyed by the situation, and went out of her way to steer the conversation back into the original issue, just so that she could insist that it was "45 days to approve, not issue". I politely advised her that she was incorrect, and the law clearly states 45 days to issue. It wasn't too big of a deal, and she was mostly polite after that, but she did seem to let her personal feelings, whatever those may be, guide her into attempting to rehash the issue with me, which was entirely unnecessary. It could be that she is just overloaded, and worn out on processing all of these applications, but whatever the reason we cannot and should not allow our civil servants to make subjective adjustments to the laws which abridge our rights, in order to accommodate their personal feelings of agitation over logistical impossibilities which were created by unnecessary abridgements to our rights in the first place.

    I certainly don't blame the Sheriff's office, or the processing clerks, personally for any part of this problem, but for the responsibility that is theirs to recognize the problem and take proactive corrective action in the course of their duties. However, I would encourage anyone who is facing this same issue, in any county, to speak up and insist that your rights not be further abridged by an ever changing and subjective standard of law based on the whims of individuals or the failings of logistics and processes to carry out their duties in accordance with the law. Perhaps if enough individuals press the issue, then it will stoke the engines of bureaucratic change, to more expediently find the most suitable process for issuing permits in accordance with the law while also relieving unnecessary stress and waste on their resources which they are experiencing right now.

    If you do reach out, be professional, be respectful, and remember that to a lot of these people it's just a job. They're trying to manage the crap shoot they were handed. They're often not that concerned with your rights, because they're not even thinking about them. That's part of the problem, and it's on you to make it known how seriously you take your rights, and that you're willing to stand up for them.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Holland, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
    Posts
    415
    Rep Power
    10846705

    Default Re: Permitium Online LTCF Application & 6109 (g) Violations

    Quote Originally Posted by chunk_norris View Post
    Wanted to provide an update.

    I did receive a response from the Luzerne County Sheriff's office, and they were very professional and polite. They scheduled my appointment for me manually, to ensure that my permit was issued within the 45 day limit as required by law.

    The Lieutenant who took care of the issue for me was extremely professional, and seemed to take the issue very seriously. We had a very respectful email exchange, which I appreciated very much. He seems to be a good man, and an honorable officer of the law. He did inform me that they would be reviewing their scheduling system and addressing any instances where people are restricted from obtaining their permit by more than 45 days, which at this point I imagine is a big task. I hope that is the case, and that they are able to find a suitable solution to fulfill all of those applications lawfully.

    The clerk who processes the actual issuance of the permit seemed to be quite annoyed by the situation, and went out of her way to steer the conversation back into the original issue, just so that she could insist that it was "45 days to approve, not issue". I politely advised her that she was incorrect, and the law clearly states 45 days to issue. It wasn't too big of a deal, and she was mostly polite after that, but she did seem to let her personal feelings, whatever those may be, guide her into attempting to rehash the issue with me, which was entirely unnecessary. It could be that she is just overloaded, and worn out on processing all of these applications, but whatever the reason we cannot and should not allow our civil servants to make subjective adjustments to the laws which abridge our rights, in order to accommodate their personal feelings of agitation over logistical impossibilities which were created by unnecessary abridgements to our rights in the first place.

    I certainly don't blame the Sheriff's office, or the processing clerks, personally for any part of this problem, but for the responsibility that is theirs to recognize the problem and take proactive corrective action in the course of their duties. However, I would encourage anyone who is facing this same issue, in any county, to speak up and insist that your rights not be further abridged by an ever changing and subjective standard of law based on the whims of individuals or the failings of logistics and processes to carry out their duties in accordance with the law. Perhaps if enough individuals press the issue, then it will stoke the engines of bureaucratic change, to more expediently find the most suitable process for issuing permits in accordance with the law while also relieving unnecessary stress and waste on their resources which they are experiencing right now.

    If you do reach out, be professional, be respectful, and remember that to a lot of these people it's just a job. They're trying to manage the crap shoot they were handed. They're often not that concerned with your rights, because they're not even thinking about them. That's part of the problem, and it's on you to make it known how seriously you take your rights, and that you're willing to stand up for them.
    They may mean well, but the numbers just don't add up. I'm in Bucks and renewed mine in March. Walked into the Levittown office with my completed application, drivers license and $20. Walked out 10 minutes later with my LTCF. Two weeks ago my daughter followed the same procedure and was out the door in less than 15 minutes. No appointments in either case, just walked in.

    Looking at the numbers:

    Population 2022 - Bucks - 629,644 (+0.68 from 2010) Luzurne - 316,091 (-1.55 from 2010) https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-counties/states/pa

    LTCFs Issued in 2021 - Bucks - 12,987 Luzurne - 7,331 https://www.psp.pa.gov/firearms-info...ual_Report.pdf


    So it looks like Bucks issues 2061 LTCFs per 100,000 residents versus Luzurne issuing 2291 per 100,000 - about 11% more than Bucks. However Bucks does it with no appointment and little wait time, while Luzurne has problems meeting the 45 day mandate.

    I just don't feel that an added 11% should cause that big a delay.

    Bill

  3. #13
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    Plains, Pennsylvania
    (Luzerne County)
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Permitium Online LTCF Application & 6109 (g) Violations

    Agreed. It's definitely the result of trying to change the whole process for handling the applications, and then not having the resources to actually facilitate the new process. When it was just handled at the Sheriff's office in the court house (prior to last year), it was the same as you described, in and out. Now they're actually issuing them from the county office of records which is in Hanover. From what I understand there's only 2 people that work there, and one of them is out for some reason, so it's just the 1 irritated lady.

    Either way, none of that is a legitimate excuse for being in breach of the maximum allowed delay under the law. Personally, I don't think there should be any delay, I don't think there should even be a permit. Your permit is simply your own existence, which is why the US Constitution recognizes your right to be armed as an inalienable right.

    As it is though, given the law as it is written and enforced today, they've got 45 days. I don't believe that they should be allowed to hold themselves to a subjective standard of law, when you or I will most certainly be held to an objective standard of the law if we are found to be in violation of it. It's important that people press the issue on that and make sure they hold themselves to the same standards that would be expected of any of us.

    Hopefully, we'll be getting a governor who actually respects the constitution soon, Mastriano, and they'll pass constitutional carry making all of this BS moot.

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