Police Dispatch Search for Firearm Purchases

[Domer Dad]

I was listening on the scanner last night to the SWAT situation in Etna.

In the early moments of information exchanges Allegheny County Dispatch reported that they found two firearm purchase records and provided the manufacturer and caliber of two firearms over the air.

It's my understanding that PA law prohibits the retention of PICS/Purchase information. So, I'm sure that info is not retained in an illegal, searchable database.

Not wanting to have my trust (further) shaken I'm looking for suggestions as to how they retrieved that information.

[PocketProtector]

I was listening on the scanner last night to the SWAT situation in Etna.

In the early moments of information exchanges Allegheny County Dispatch reported that they found two firearm purchase records and provided the manufacturer and caliber of two firearms over the air.

It's my understanding that PA law prohibits the retention of PICS/Purchase information. So, I'm sure that info is not retained in an illegal, searchable database.

Not wanting to have my trust (further) shaken I'm looking for suggestions as to how they retrieved that information.

Its just a piece of paper

[streaker69]

The Record of Sale Database, that all 911 centers now have access to. Any firearm that had a PICS check done during the sale is recorded in there. Yes, it's illegal, no the courts won't do anything about it. Our government doesn't have to abide by the laws, and our spineless elected assholes will never do anything about it.

[Noah_Zark]

The Record of Sale Database, that all 911 centers now have access to. Any firearm that had a PICS check done during the sale is recorded in there. Yes, it's illegal, no the courts won't do anything about it. Our government doesn't have to abide by the laws, and our spineless elected assholes will never do anything about it.

Several years ago the PA state supreme court found the PSP ROS database to be legal, and the majority opinion was some convoluted head-scratcher of a justification. The ROS is too valuable a crimestopper tool for the PA police / judicial-industrial complex to give up just because the law says the SP4-113 form must be destroyed in 48h or something.

Noah

[GunLawyer001]

Actually . . . . yes, the PSP can print out a list of all updated firearm transfers with you as the last transferee. I've seen it done.

No, it's not actually illegal. The prohibition on keeping records applies to the long gun records created during a loss of PICS service.

§ 6111.
(b)
(1.1)
"In the event of an electronic failure under section 6111.1(b)(2) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) for purposes of a firearm which exceeds the barrel and related lengths set forth in section 6102, obtained a completed application/record of sale from the potential buyer or transferee to be filled out in triplicate, the original copy to be sent to the Pennsylvania State Police, postmarked via first class mail, within 14 days of sale, one copy to be retained by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer for a period of 20 years and one copy to be provided to the purchaser or transferee."

"no information on the application/record of sale provided pursuant to this subsection shall be retained as precluded by section 6111.4 (relating to registration of firearms) by the Pennsylvania State Police either through retention of the application/record of sale or by entering the information onto a computer, and, further, an application/record of sale received by the Pennsylvania State Police pursuant to this subsection shall be destroyed within 72 hours of the completion of the criminal history, juvenile delinquency and mental health records background check."

If the PA Legislature wants to prohibit retaining ALL records, including the cumulative Record of Sale Database, then they have to rewrite the law to do so. I'm in favor of that. The Byzantine system of laws and record checks applicable to used guns hasn't stopped teen thugs from obtaining guns and using them with regularity; only tossing their pantsless butts in jail does that, and our primary reservoir of crime (Sodom on the Delaware) voted in a Soros nominee who stopped prosecuting criminals as long as they have a sob story about their great-great-grandparents.

[tl_3237]

Several years ago the PA state supreme court found the PSP ROS database to be legal, and the majority opinion was some convoluted head-scratcher of a justification. The ROS is too valuable a crimestopper tool for the PA police / judicial-industrial complex to give up just because the law says the SP4-113 form must be destroyed in 48h or something.

Noah

Thanks for bringing that up. I still get a headache trying to follow the illogical rationalizations. Perusal at one's own risk:

As the highlighted language indicates, Section 6111(b)(1.1)(v) limits its requirement that applications/records of sale be destroyed to those applications/records of sale that are received "pursuant to this subsection."[5] Although subsection (v) does not specifically state that it applies to long guns, when read in context with Section 6111(b)(1.1) as a whole, it is clear that its application is limited to long guns.

It is undisputed that the database at issue is not a registry of ownership, but rather, merely reflects the applications/records of sale for handgun purchases that occur in Pennsylvania. The database does not maintain a record of all firearms owned by Pennsylvanians, which would include long guns, or firearms that are owned by Pennsylvanians, but not purchased in the Commonwealth. Additionally, the database of handgun sales does not include handguns that are transferred between spouses, parents and children, and grandparents and grandchildren. See 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111(c). Nor is the database a survey of existing ownership. The database maintained by the Commonwealth merely contains information regarding the sales of handguns in the Commonwealth. Such a database does not amount to a "registry of firearm ownership" as prohibited by the Firearms Act.

Allegheny Cty. Sportsmen's League v. Rendell, 860 A. 2d 10 - Pa: Supreme Court 2004

[-JD-]

Several years ago the PA state supreme court found the PSP ROS database to be legal, and the majority opinion was some convoluted head-scratcher of a justification. The ROS is too valuable a crimestopper post-crime investigatory/arbitrary harassment tool for the PA police / judicial-industrial complex to give up just because the law says the SP4-113 form must be destroyed in 48h or something.

Noah

FIFY

I believe the logic was that while a Registry would not be legal, since the the Record Of Sale database is not complete, it is not a Registry, and is therefore not illegal.

I'm sure I could make all sorts of convenient rationalizations to my advantage with that kind of logic.

[Emptymag]

I like how they read the name, address, and gun description off over the radio for anyone with a scanner to hear it.

[Noah_Zark]

I believe the logic was that while a Registry would not be legal, since the the Record Of Sale database is not complete, it is not a Registry, and is therefore not illegal. . . .

Something like that. Toldja it was convoluted.

Noah

[JenniferG]

The governments that rule today, Local, State and Federal have made it so they are under no obligation to follow the laws that have been written for them to obey and use the judicial system through coercion or corruption to assert their position. This is not how it's supposed to work.