Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Law enforcement legal question

    If you use OC spray, use short bursts. The OC takes a second or two to kick in AFTER you are done spraying.
    "The Constitution is the guide which I will not abandon. - George Washington

  2. #42
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    NorthEastern Pa, Pennsylvania
    (Lackawanna County)
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    Default Re: Law enforcement legal question

    Well nothing has changed. He's still over there training hootin' and hollering', his dogs snarling and barking when he's training others against distractions.

    Last Saturday My buddy myself and my dog walked past his home after a hike in the woods. I noticed he had a new girlfriend, she was holding what appeared to be her own dog on a 20 ft leader and several dogs were there with hers in the back yard. Once we get past the side of the house where I can no longer see, her dog comes bolting around the corner, no one holding the leash, I pull out the bear spray and give him a shot in the head just as my dog goes down and he's snarling. I pulled my dog away as I sprayed.

    Dog on the loose immediately takes off down the street with the girlfriend in chase and apologizing. I said nothing.

    A bit later on the trainer comes walking up the street and taunting me to come on down and fight like a man. I tell him several times he's trespassing on my property. We have a huge shouting match me just yelling over him (not my proudest moment) when I say hold on let me get my phone he's made it about half way up my yard. This is on security footage. It does show me motioning for him to leave, then my finger goes up when I say hold on a minute, then shows him immediately leaving. I wish there was audio that really would have made a case....but my cameras have none

    I call the police to file another police report, they show up, he's calling me a racist, saying I sprayed his 2 year old daughter (who was in the house when I sprayed as far as I know). After he left my property he goes in his house. All windows were closed. I could hear him hitting internal walls and yelling (at his GF I guess?) I thought it was going to turn into a domestic call. It didn't.

    The police are saying his daughter got sprayed, ambulance shows up, 15 minutes later they take her into the ambulance, 5 minutes later they carry her back out. Not a tear shed the entire time. Neighbor is suggesting the spray made it into the house. I show police the two puddles on the street where the spray puddled up. it's at least 50 feet from the house. Later my wife asks how the baby is, they say "Oh she cried it out". At that point I produced the two previous police reports (mostly the neighbors words not mine) and the legal document stating it's legal to kill a dog in pursuit of another dog. They take that and I imagine at some point showed it to the neighbor. I have several copies printed up, Thank You to whoever supplied that to me on this post. Strangest thing, the new GF who was most closely involved never once came out of the house once the police arrived, there was another girl there talking to police. I should have asked why she wasn't there but honestly It just never occurred. Woulda Coulda Shoulda Didn't, it's all happening fast and I don't notice until later on when my buddy mentions it.

    Police suggesting someone was holding the leash when I sprayed, There was no one there and my buddy who was right next to me confirms this. In other words just a big shit show.

    The next day I call the code enforcer. Leave a message. He calls back Tuesday and said The Trainer was offered a temporary code variance when he moved in and said he trains dogs. Said he declined it and said he'll just wait until he moves until he starts training. I said I have 3 police reports on file at this point where I called and reported his dogs out of his control.

    Zoning officer says he'll send notification for the trainer to stop conducting business there, that was Tuesday. After the conversation I emailed him for a second time and included the first email from the first incident as well.

    I asked to be kept informed, as this situation is rapidly escalating, and I have serious safety concerns for all people and animals involved.

    That was Tuesday. Yesterday he was training on the street and quickly retreated to his garage with a dog and his client, clearly agitated. Later on he was up the street training with yet another client.

    Looks like I have to show up at a council meeting. I may also have other random people call his office, identify themselves, and ask what the current situation is at that address. That technique has worked amazingly well in other situations. I once made a call to Hawaii to a dealer that was refusing warranty work for a guy on the same forum as me. They did the work.

    I once had a dealership contact a curbside car dealership that was refusing to sign the title and transfer it for a car I'd bought in another state. The title was at my house the next day.

    It's amazing how fast people will wake up and move once they realize that random people they don't know are taking an interest in their misdealing. It's worth a shot. No harassment or threats, just identify yourself and ask if the situation you heard about is true. Most people not acting or performing due diligence have no concerns about it, but only if they think no one else knows or cares. They get a few calls from random strangers merely asking an honest question about their behavior it changes fast. So far in my experience a beautiful thing.
    Last edited by BDX2; July 2nd, 2022 at 11:30 AM.

  3. #43
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    Holland, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Law enforcement legal question

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadeRabbit View Post
    Does anyone have any kind of citation or case law regarding this issue? Any cops or lawyers want to chime in? Currently have LTCF, but it would be good to know for future reference.
    Title 18 - Uniform Firearms Act - https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs...&div=0&chpt=61


    6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.

    (a) Offense defined.--

    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

    (2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.



    Also, from this thread - https://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=24310

    Re: conceled carry on private property
    There is only one appellate case that interprets this area of the statute.

    Commonwealth v. Ortiz, 558 Pa. 473 (Pa. 1999)

    Basically, the PA Supreme Court ruled that a shared, fenced in, rear yard in an apartment complex does not constitute a "place of abode..." In a footnote, the court specifically declined to rule on the broader issue of what constitutes a true place of abode. The court stated:

    We do not decide whether a person violated Pa.C.S. 6106(a) when he is outside his house or apartment in an area over which he has exclusive control.

    In the analysis, the court relied heavily on the interpretation of similar statutory language in other states. This may suggest that if confronted with the question of property under exclusive control, they might do so again.

    Of course, the easiest way to fix this problem is for a lot of people to write to legislators and ask them to place a more specific definition in the statute.

  4. #44
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    york, Pennsylvania
    (York County)
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    Default Re: Law enforcement legal question

    Shoot the neighbor
    Take the cannoli

  5. #45
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    Nov 2008
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    Oley, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
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    Default Re: Law enforcement legal question

    Does he have a website ? That can be used as evidence if it lists his home as the business. Toss that out to codes and council...

  6. #46
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    pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Law enforcement legal question

    Quote Originally Posted by BDX2 View Post
    Hi All,

    Good to be here !!!! CC since 1996. I didn't have anything proper to carry back then but still felt it worthy to exercise my rights lest we lose them.

    I was recently involved in an incident where i drew my weapon on a neighbors dog while on my property. It's a large dog while mine is 17 pounds, he was moving fast, and I was unfamiliar with the dog.

    I called the incident in. All said and done reporting officer asked me to produce my CCA (I did)

    I got the police report two weeks later, it says I drew my gun, produced a CCP, and then goes on to state the expiration date of my permit.

    Did he have the right to ask for my permit when It is agreed and known I was in the center of my property ? Even more odd, Why the expiration date on the police report ?

    I hope this is the right place to ask.

    Thanks,

    Joe
    You may be within 1000ft from a school property line, just adding those facts to the report to document that i guess.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Law enforcement legal question

    Quote Originally Posted by wew3 View Post
    Title 18 - Uniform Firearms Act - https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs...&div=0&chpt=61


    6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.

    (a) Offense defined.--

    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

    (2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.



    Also, from this thread - https://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=24310

    Re: conceled carry on private property
    There is only one appellate case that interprets this area of the statute.

    Commonwealth v. Ortiz, 558 Pa. 473 (Pa. 1999)

    Basically, the PA Supreme Court ruled that a shared, fenced in, rear yard in an apartment complex does not constitute a "place of abode..." In a footnote, the court specifically declined to rule on the broader issue of what constitutes a true place of abode. The court stated:

    We do not decide whether a person violated Pa.C.S. 6106(a) when he is outside his house or apartment in an area over which he has exclusive control.

    In the analysis, the court relied heavily on the interpretation of similar statutory language in other states. This may suggest that if confronted with the question of property under exclusive control, they might do so again.

    Of course, the easiest way to fix this problem is for a lot of people to write to legislators and ask them to place a more specific definition in the statute.
    Never even thought about the term IN, wow.

  8. #48
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    Mar 2022
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    pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Law enforcement legal question

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    The appellate courts don't think we should have guns at all, so when they interpret gun statutes, it tends to go against us. Like when they decided that a Pennsylvania resident is not a "person".
    What does the recent Bruen decision say about this now?

  9. #49
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    May 2007
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    Chambersburg, Pennsylvania
    (Franklin County)
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    Default Re: Law enforcement legal question

    Quote Originally Posted by iUxTc View Post
    You may be within 1000ft from a school property line, just adding those facts to the report to document that i guess.
    Irrelevant. "Gun free school zones" specifically exempt private property that lies within the radius, per 18 U.S.C. 922(q)(2)(A)(i).

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922#q_2_A
    Get your "Guns Save Lives" stickers today! PM for more info.

  10. #50
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    (Lackawanna County)
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    Default Re: Law enforcement legal question

    Yes he does. I can check it again, but I saw no address. There are many posts on Facebook of examples of the progress several canine clients are making that make the neighborhood, quite possibly the residence identifiable on a regular basis....

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