Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Proposed ATF 80% rules and kits

    If you read the link in the op it says

    "Weapon parts kits with partially complete frames or receivers and containing the necessary parts such that they may readily be completed, assembled, converted, or restored to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive are *firearms* for which each frame or receiver of the weapon would need to be marked.

    A weapon, including a weapon parts kit, in which each frame or receiver of the weapon or within such kit is destroyed is not considered a *firearm*.

    Licensing of Dealer/Gunsmiths
    Under the proposed rule, dealers/gunsmiths can mark firearms for the maker or owner of a privately made firearm (PMF) and may be licensed to engage solely in that business."

    That sounds like a citizen completing a firearm is expected to get it marked and they are creating a new business just for this purpose.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Proposed ATF 80% rules and kits

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilikebuckets View Post
    If you read the link in the op it says

    "Weapon parts kits with partially complete frames or receivers and containing the necessary parts such that they may readily be completed, assembled, converted, or restored to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive are *firearms* for which each frame or receiver of the weapon would need to be marked.

    A weapon, including a weapon parts kit, in which each frame or receiver of the weapon or within such kit is destroyed is not considered a *firearm*.

    Licensing of Dealer/Gunsmiths
    Under the proposed rule, dealers/gunsmiths can mark firearms for the maker or owner of a privately made firearm (PMF) and may be licensed to engage solely in that business."

    That sounds like a citizen completing a firearm is expected to get it marked.
    You've repeated the definition of a firearm and a weapons parts kit- I'll tell you right now that they are going after the 80% receivers kits accompanied by all the necessary other parts to complete the build.

    You've repeated text saying that FFLs CAN mark firearms for the maker/owner of PMFs.

    Now, please show me the text that says "Non-licensees" MUST mark their PMFs
    "It seems that the Constitution is more or less guidelines than actual rules"
    My feedback: http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=305685

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Proposed ATF 80% rules and kits

    So all semi-auto are machine guns and everyone that has a semi auto is in unlawful possession of a machine gun? Just looking for clarification.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Proposed ATF 80% rules and kits

    Quote Originally Posted by ExFlyinguy View Post
    NO, you don't There is nothing in that rule that requires anything of non-licensee private home builder


    "Licensees must"
    Again read the whole link. It breaks it out in 3 parts,

    1-
    Marking and Recordkeeping Requirements for PMFs
    Under the proposed rule, a *privately made firearm* (PMF) is a firearm, including a frame or receiver, assembled or otherwise produced by a person other than a licensed manufacturer, and without a serial number or other identifying markings placed by a licensed manufacturer at the time the firearm was produced.
    2-
    Firearm Parts Kits
    The proposed rule explains that when a partially complete frame or receiver parts kit has reached a stage in manufacture where it may readily be completed, assembled, converted, or restored to a functional state, it is a *frame or receiver* that must be marked.
    3-
    Properly mark previously acquired PMFs themselves or may arrange to have another licensee mark the firearm on their behalf.
    IE I have to take them in and mark them or point you to someone who can. It does not mean *MY PMF's (as an FFL who owns one) it means ALL PMF's (IE YOURS)!!! *but I have to do any in inv as well

    I hope this whole thing dies but I warned you.
    Owner Trigger Time LLc 01 FFL/NFA Saylorsburg, PA. Sales/Service/Transfers/Training
    NRA CRSO/Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun inst. BSA Rifle/Shotgun Merit badge counselor. US Navy Marksmanship Team Staff

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Proposed ATF 80% rules and kits

    This won't affect free states, but all the blue states will now be allowed to effectively ban 80% frames/lowers that they've been unable to because of ATF regs. Kinda like removing preemption for the gun grabbing states...
    SigGendered

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Proposed ATF 80% rules and kits

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosco the Iroc View Post
    Again read the whole link. It breaks it out in 3 parts,

    1-


    2-


    3-
    IE I have to take them in and mark them or point you to someone who can. It does not mean *MY PMF's (as an FFL who owns one) it means ALL PMF's (IE YOURS)!!! *but I have to do any in inv as well

    I hope this whole thing dies but I warned you.
    OMG, it means that if someone wants to sell or otherwise transfer a PMF handgun, or rifle in states that require BGC's for long guns that any FFL agreeing to complete such transfer in the process of taking it into their inventory that you/they will be required to mark the particular firearm. Now not every FFL is going to have engraving capabilities so there is the option to refuse any such transfers. It's right there in the text of the proposal.


    PLEASE by all means and for the love of dog - copy, paste and highlight the portion that says "NON-Licensees" owners of PMFs have to go to a FFL to have their shit marked.

    I'm done beating this horse, if you want to do the mental gymnastics necessary to subject yourself to this requirement so be it.

    *ETA: I don't know who needs to chime in to put this to rest- Phil aka Gunlawyer; Mr. Prince, Knight, Xring shooter? Who exactly will anyone believe?

    Since the ATF text seems too difficult to comprehend, maybe just this little article is plain English enough?:

    The proposed regulation would not impose additional requirements on unlicensed private gunmakers who build guns for personal use. It would impose new burdens, however, on firearms licensees who take in unmarked homemade guns and now would have to *mark* those homemade guns with a serial number, record those marks with the ATF, and maintain records of the ensuing transactions, just like they would with a commercially manufactured gun.
    link:https://www.heritage.org/firearms/co...host-gun-rules
    Last edited by ExFlyinguy; March 11th, 2022 at 09:13 PM.
    "It seems that the Constitution is more or less guidelines than actual rules"
    My feedback: http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=305685

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Proposed ATF 80% rules and kits

    Quote Originally Posted by ExFlyinguy View Post
    You've repeated the definition of a firearm and a weapons parts kit- I'll tell you right now that they are going after the 80% receivers kits accompanied by all the necessary other parts to complete the build.

    You've repeated text saying that FFLs CAN mark firearms for the maker/owner of PMFs.

    Now, please show me the text that says "Non-licensees" MUST mark their PMFs
    Soooo if you buy the parts separate it's ok then? Ironically the new freedom wolf 80% frame from lone wolf takes 2 days to finish. what if you marked your own? isn't it illegal to deface a marking on something considered a firearm? ( These are just the thoughts that come into my head here.) Also how is that going to go in regards to our state constitution in which it's illegal for them to have a registry?

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Proposed ATF 80% rules and kits

    Let me jump in. I agree with ExFlyinguy...I believe the serialization applies to licensees (FFL holders). I DO see other references to others feeling differently (this is all conjuncture at this point):

    https://www.80percentarms.com/blog/a...n-of-firearms/

    The process has not been finalized yet, but generally speaking it seems it would be similar to how residents in California have to submit an application for a firearm*s custom serial number (which they really do give out) and there would be a 60-day window for the builder to have their PMF be serialized by a licensee. Once serialized with the custom or official serial number provided or approved by the ATF, picture proof would have to be provided in order to finalize the process. Proper recordkeeping would also be required on the gunsmith*s side of things.
    My take is this proposal is aimed at 80 lower retailers, and they would need to serialize their 80 lower products and be licensed to sell. This may reach out to upper manufacturers as well.
    Last edited by jacksnack; March 12th, 2022 at 11:43 AM.
    NRA Life Member

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Proposed ATF 80% rules and kits

    Quote Originally Posted by HKusp 45 View Post
    Soooo if you buy the parts separate it's ok then? Ironically the new freedom wolf 80% frame from lone wolf takes 2 days to finish. what if you marked your own? isn't it illegal to deface a marking on something considered a firearm? ( These are just the thoughts that come into my head here.) Also how is that going to go in regards to our state constitution in which it's illegal for them to have a registry?
    Let me preface, I'm not cheerleading for the ATF or this rule. I'm particularly concerned about them redefining the definition of what is a firearm/receiver, but the marking requirements mean nothing to me as someone who has built a PMF. I'm not required to add markings simply because I built my own firearm. If they want SN# added once it hits the market place- IDGAF *In PA this will still only apply to handguns (Not long guns since they can be sold FTF)

    Soooo if you buy the parts separate it's ok then?- I interpret it that way. I guess the ATF's logic is that the Product sellers are making it too easy for 1 stop shopping.

    what if you marked your own? You can voluntarily mark your PMF, and the ATF encourages this practice in the case of loss or theft.
    Additionally, although markings are not required on firearms manufactured for personal use (excluding NFA firearms), owners are recommended to conspicuously place or engrave a serial number and/ or other marks of identification to aid in investigation or recovery by State or local law enforcement officials in the event of a theft or loss of the privately owned firearm. (emphasis added)

    isn't it illegal to deface a marking on something considered a firearm?

    Title 18 PA> Crimes Code 6117. Altering or obliterating marks of identification.

    (a) Offense defined.--No person shall change, alter, remove, or obliterate the manufacturer's number integral to the frame or receiver of any firearm which shall have the same meaning as provided in section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms).

    (b) Presumption.--(Deleted by amendment).

    (c) Penalty.--A violation of this section constitutes a felony of the second degree.


    A. I'm not a lawyer
    B. My research may not always produce the most up to date information
    "It seems that the Constitution is more or less guidelines than actual rules"
    My feedback: http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=305685

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Proposed ATF 80% rules and kits

    This big concern that will likely impact everyone in this space is:

    • 80 lowers will now need to go though a FFL to purchase and will be serialized like a complete lower;
    • upper receivers may now require an FFL to purchase
    • erosion of or freedoms...again.
    NRA Life Member

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