ATF denying “Solvent Trap” Form 1’s!!!!

[1096369fred]

It really is getting to the point, where it is us, and the Constitution, against them*.

Laws don*t apply*. To them,
Enforcement does not apply*. To them.
Media pays No attention*..to them.
Accountability does not exist*. To them.

We are the only ones living under a presumption of guilt, and moral inferiority*..
It sure is getting old*..

[Walleye Hunter]

It really is getting to the point, where it is us, and the Constitution, against them*.

Laws don*t apply*. To them,
Enforcement does not apply*. To them.
Media pays No attention*..to them.
Accountability does not exist*. To them.

We are the only ones living under a presumption of guilt, and moral inferiority*..
It sure is getting old*..

Yes it is.

[GunLawyer001]

The FBI found that creating new crimes and videotaping the "false statements to agents" was a whole lot easier and far less dangerous than going after actual criminals. Real criminals, out in the wild, might shoot you rather than go to jail. Real criminals make sure to commit their predatory crimes in private, instead of sitting in interrogation rooms at police HQ. So the FBI goes after soft targets like Martha Stewart and Scooter Libby and General Flynn, generally for malum prohibitum crimes which have no identifiable victims.

So ATF is now saying (1) possession of any silencer parts is possession of that same number of unregistered silencers; (2) so you may not possess any unassembled silencer parts without committing multiple Federal crimes; (3) you may not possess any silencer parts unless assembled into a registered silencer; (4) please photograph the proof that you have illegal parts and email to them to us so we can build our case against you without leaving our desk.

No.

Just, no.

When this started, I assumed that ATF was reasonably trying to prevent people from assembling unregistered silencers, so that the Crips and MS-13 would not be making quiet drive-by homicides. That appears NOT to be the case now. The people who seized control of our country don't think that you should have any guns or silencers or weapons at all, and to the extent possible, they will prosecute you or intimidate you out of having what Ukrainians are currently using to protect their nation. There is no sense in which the population of "people who file Form 1 applications" is inherently more dangerous or more criminal than the population of "police officers" or "politicians" or even "employees of ATF or the FBI or the NSA or the USPS". Anyone wants to show me stats proving otherwise, I'm right here waiting.

[1096369fred]

The FBI found that creating new crimes and videotaping the "false statements to agents" was a whole lot easier and far less dangerous than going after actual criminals. Real criminals, out in the wild, might shoot you rather than go to jail. Real criminals make sure to commit their predatory crimes in private, instead of sitting in interrogation rooms at police HQ. So the FBI goes after soft targets like Martha Stewart and Scooter Libby and General Flynn, generally for malum prohibitum crimes which have no identifiable victims.

So ATF is now saying (1) possession of any silencer parts is possession of that same number of unregistered silencers; (2) so you may not possess any unassembled silencer parts without committing multiple Federal crimes; (3) you may not possess any silencer parts unless assembled into a registered silencer; (4) please photograph the proof that you have illegal parts and email to them to us so we can build our case against you without leaving our desk.

No.

Just, no.

When this started, I assumed that ATF was reasonably trying to prevent people from assembling unregistered silencers, so that the Crips and MS-13 would not be making quiet drive-by homicides. That appears NOT to be the case now. The people who seized control of our country don't think that you should have any guns or silencers or weapons at all, and to the extent possible, they will prosecute you or intimidate you out of having what Ukrainians are currently using to protect their nation. There is no sense in which the population of "people who file Form 1 applications" is inherently more dangerous or more criminal than the population of "police officers" or "politicians" or even "employees of ATF or the FBI or the NSA or the USPS". Anyone wants to show me stats proving otherwise, I'm right here waiting.

Thanks for jumping in, I always appreciate your knowledge, and perspective in legal matters!

It is typical of government, the art of the circular argument*.. The collection of parts that you own, that in no way, by itself, is capable of lowering the sound of your firearms one decibel, but it is A suppressor, and without any criminal intent, will get you put in jail*.. and that Form 1 you wanted to file to legally make that collection of parts, into a functional suppressor*.. denied*. Why? Because that collection of parts already IS what you are trying to legally make, and we can*t allow you to make, what you already possess*..

Abbot, and Costello would love this one, would make a great NFA *Who*s on First*!

It is enough to give you a headache*..

[USMC3531]

Thanks for jumping in, I always appreciate your knowledge, and perspective in legal matters!

It is typical of government, the art of the circular argument*.. The collection of parts that you own, that in no way, by itself, is capable of lowering the sound of your firearms one decibel, but it is A suppressor, and without any criminal intent, will get you put in jail*.. and that Form 1 you wanted to file to legally make that collection of parts, into a functional suppressor*.. denied*. Why? Because that collection of parts already IS what you are trying to legally make, and we can*t allow you to make, what you already possess*..

Abbot, and Costello would love this one, would make a great NFA *Who*s on First*!

It is enough to give you a headache*..

This all stems from parts that have no other legal use except for use in a suppressor so they are suppressors. All these guys making baffles but calling them "storage cups" or sauce cups with no pictures on how to use them . And the atf said we aren't falling for it. Maybe if they had left more material on them (like a mini wine glass) and marketed them as shot glasses including pictures of them being used as such and no connection to gun parts or anything they wouldn't have noticed.

[widgetman101]

This all stems from parts that have no other legal use except for use in a suppressor so they are suppressors. All these guys making baffles but calling them "storage cups" or sauce cups with no pictures on how to use them . And the atf said we aren't falling for it. Maybe if they had left more material on them (like a mini wine glass) and marketed them as shot glasses including pictures of them being used as such and no connection to gun parts or anything they wouldn't have noticed.

I wonder if they would have been better off to just call them 80% suppressors since that seems to be fine for guns themselves. I'd say for 98% of people the only reason these exist and why there's a market is because of the ridiculous wait times with the ATF for Form 4's. I have as much if not more into a few Form 1 builds as it would have cost to buy one prebuilt on a Form 4, I just didn't want to wait a year + to get them.

I think what's bringing this on is no different than the "Buy build shoot" Polymer80 kits where they're considering it to close to finished. Some of the different companies were putting dimples and cutouts where things need to be drilled and that seemed to go to far and the universal standard was just a cup itself with no markings or indents.

Anyway you slice it this is absurd, people like myself are just trying to be compliant and legal and get stuff in a timely manner.

[Walleye Hunter]

The big kick in the nuts is that suppressors are not the least bit evil.

[USMC3531]

I wonder if they would have been better off to just call them 80% suppressors since that seems to be fine for guns themselves. I'd say for 98% of people the only reason these exist and why there's a market is because of the ridiculous wait times with the ATF for Form 4's. I have as much if not more into a few Form 1 builds as it would have cost to buy one prebuilt on a Form 4, I just didn't want to wait a year + to get them.

I think what's bringing this on is no different than the "Buy build shoot" Polymer80 kits where they're considering it to close to finished. Some of the different companies were putting dimples and cutouts where things need to be drilled and that seemed to go to far and the universal standard was just a cup itself with no markings or indents.

Anyway you slice it this is absurd, people like myself are just trying to be compliant and legal and get stuff in a timely manner.

The issue is there is no such thing as 80% it's just a marketing term. The atf never liked diy silencer kits, they had cracked down years ago at gunshows to the point tube would be at one table internals at another etc. And there really has never been approved "unfinished internals" . All this could have been avoided if people would have just made their own parts. If you don't have the tools/ skills (and no desire to learn) what business do you really have building gunparts.

[icp4life162005]

The issue is there is no such thing as 80% it's just a marketing term. The atf never liked diy silencer kits, they had cracked down years ago at gunshows to the point tube would be at one table internals at another etc. And there really has never been approved "unfinished internals" . All this could have been avoided if people would have just made their own parts. If you don't have the tools/ skills (and no desire to learn) what business do you really have building gunparts.

Dude. It's a safety device.

The real question is, why are you allowing the atf to run roughshod over your life?
This is all bullshit, and you going along with it makes it no better.
This could all have been avoided if the atf just fucked off and died.

[85MikeTPI]

All this could have been avoided if people would have just made their own parts. If you don't have the tools/ skills (and no desire to learn) what business do you really have building gunparts.

That's the spirit.. FUDD all over everyone that doesn't meet your requirements..