Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: MAC 10 with Bower Suppressor Purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    What are the practical options these days for a non-SOT to ship NFA firearms to an out-of-state SOT?
    Good question, with FedEx not accepting firearms shipments from non-FFLs that leaves UPS or some other "commercial" carrier. If the NFA item was Form 4'd to the out of state SOT, the owner would have the approved Form 4 to go with it saying it was now owned by the receiving SOT so I don't see why it couldn't be given (for lack of a better word) to a FFL/SOT to have them ship it. The item is not being transferred to the shipping FFL/SOT, they are just being used as the "shipper".

    I will however, pose this question on another forum where there are some BIG NFA business SOTS that might be able to answer.
    Last edited by Xringshooter; February 4th, 2022 at 07:52 PM.
    Ron USAF Ret E-8 FFL01/SOT3 NRA Benefactor Member

  2. #12
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    Scenery Hill, Pennsylvania
    (Washington County)
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    Default Re: MAC 10 with Bower Suppressor Purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by eagleclaw View Post
    Are you sure about that? I suppose an FFL can advertise class three firearms firearms owned by another that the owner is trying to sell, but can they take possession and display them in their shop with the tax stamp still in the owners name like they do with a title one firearm on consignment ?
    He can take it in for inspection and cleaning, and it just happens to be for sale, I’m pretty sure.
    In America arms are free merchandise such that anyone who has the capital may make their houses into armories and their gardens into parks of artillery. - Ira Allen, 1796

  3. #13
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    (Schuylkill County)
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    Default Re: MAC 10 with Bower Suppressor Purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by Xringshooter View Post
    The FL lawyer/FFL-SOT could have brokered the deal (found a buyer) and once you paid for the gun made his money. He would maybe then help the owner do the Form 4 from him (the owner), making a little more money, to your FFL/SOT in PA (that's the first transfer) and ship it to the PA FFL/SOT for the owner (more money made) when it came back approved. Then your FFL/SOT Form 4s it to you from him (second transfer).

    Also, it could have been transferred: Owner to FL FFL/SOT - Form 4 to FL FFL/SOT, he now owns it and has paid the original owner. FL FFL/SOT finds a buyer (you) and Form 3s it to your FFL/SOT (tax free transfer) when you pay the FL FFL/SOT the agreed upon price. Your FFL/SOT then Form 4s it to you.

    The FL lawyer/FFL/SOT made it too complicated

    That sounds like what he was talking about. He specifically told me this “ Good afternoon. After multiple calls to the ATF and I spoke to Ed’s yesterday, paperwork is complete and out for signature!

    Owner is going to do 2 Form 4s to my company (one for gun and one for silencer) and I will then immediately do a Form 3 transfer (SOT dealer to SOT dealer) to Ed’s who will then get with you for the final Form 4s from them to you.

    It’s cumbersome, but necessary given a transfer over state lines.

    Thank you very much for your patience!

    I will copy you with the Form 4 on this end once submitted! Should be early next week!”

    Does it make sense?

  4. #14
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    Default Re: MAC 10 with Bower Suppressor Purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshIronshaft View Post
    If he is the right kind of FFL he can certainly sell the machine gun on consignment.

    The current owner shouldn't be transferring the gun to the FFL in FL.

    It should be going right from the current owner to your local FFL who is appropriately licensed. Then from the FFL to you. Two transfers and done.

    Congrats on the purchase!
    Thanks!! It was a big purchase for me but I think it will be a wise investment. I also picked up a Lage max 10/31 9mm upper for mac 10… Something else to play with

  5. #15
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    Default Re: MAC 10 with Bower Suppressor Purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    What are the practical options these days for a non-SOT to ship NFA firearms to an out-of-state SOT?
    The answers from SOT's that do a lot of NFA/Title II work and know the regs pretty much inside out, is that a non-FFL/SOT can ship a NFA item to a FFL/SOT just like they can ship a Title I firearm (handgun, long guns), as long as they go by the shippers rules. They also said that giving a firearm to a FFL to ship for them, be it a NFA item or not, does not constitute a transfer as the FFL is just acting as a shipper, so no NFA paperwork is required.
    Ron USAF Ret E-8 FFL01/SOT3 NRA Benefactor Member

  6. #16
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    Default Re: MAC 10 with Bower Suppressor Purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by MrRuffGunz View Post
    Well apparently not all transfers are created equal and this is my such luck. Next time maybe a bit more research before jumping in* Anyway*

    I purchased a Mac 10 full auto w Bowers Suppressor in March of 2021. It was on a form 4 in Florida. The man selling it is an attorney/FFL/GunShopOwner in Florida. I thought it was a simple transfer from him to me. Not the case. Apparently it must go from the owner in Florida, which turned out wasn*t him he had the Mac 10 in his shop on consignment i believe* So basically 3 ATF transfers from what I understand? He said the ATF said it must be done this way. From original owner to his FFl in Florida(first transfer)* then from his FFL to my FFL(second transfer), then from my FFL to me on a form 4* The first transfer check was cashed on May 20th 2021 so that was about 8 months ago. He and my local FFL did exchange information for the shipping up eventually. Does all this sound legitimate? I checked the seller out he seems legit being with Florida bar association and having a gun shop and whatnot? Just looking to see what every one else thinks*
    Capitol Armory website has a nice write-up about buying machine guns: https://www.capitolarmory.com/blog/b...chine-gun.html

    Basically your seller did an extra step of transferring the MG to his local FFL/SOT, but that additional step is only going to slow down the entire process by a week because the transfer time between the sellers FFL and your FFL is only 3 or 4 days (tax-free Form 3 transfer). This is why transferable MG's on a "Form 3" typically bring more money because it reduces the time for the buyer to get the MG by about 4 to 6 months.
    Washington County Machine Guns & Tactical Range -- CMP Affiliated Club -- FFL 07 / FFL 10 / FEL 20 / SOT 02 / ITAR
    Largest MG Rental Business on the entire East Coast. M2HB, M9 Flamethrower, M67 Grenades, M240 Bravo, M249 SAW, M1919, RPD, M60, Bowling Ball Mortar.
    Now offering High-Explosive Classes (Open to the Public)

  7. #17
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    Default Re: MAC 10 with Bower Suppressor Purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by WCMG View Post
    Capitol Armory website has a nice write-up about buying machine guns: https://www.capitolarmory.com/blog/b...chine-gun.html

    Basically your seller did an extra step of transferring the MG to his local FFL/SOT, but that additional step is only going to slow down the entire process by a week because the transfer time between the sellers FFL and your FFL is only 3 or 4 days (tax-free Form 3 transfer). This is why transferable MG's on a "Form 3" typically bring more money because it reduces the time for the buyer to get the MG by about 4 to 6 months.
    That is good to know. I also heard the transfer times between two FFLs was short as in 30 days or so but I could not get an actual number. The seller did tell me it would add more time for two transfers but I said what the hell I already have to wait 9 months why not wait 18 months ����

  8. #18
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    Default Re: MAC 10 with Bower Suppressor Purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by MrRuffGunz View Post
    That is good to know. I also heard the transfer times between two FFLs was short as in 30 days or so but I could not get an actual number. The seller did tell me it would add more time for two transfers but I said what the hell I already have to wait 9 months why not wait 18 months ����
    Just for clarification, the only two options would have been:

    Option A:
    1. Seller -> His FFL (Florida)
    Form 4, $200 tax paid, ~9 months
    2. His FFL -> Your FFL (PA)
    Form 3, tax free, ~3 to 30 days
    3. Your FFL -> You
    Form 4, $200 tax paid, ~9 months

    Total time: 18-19 months (average)

    or

    Option B:
    1. Seller -> Your FFL (PA)
    Form 4, $200 tax paid, ~9 months
    2. Your FFL -> You
    Form 4, $200 tax paid, ~9 months

    Total time: 18 months (average)

    So the only "extra" transfer you could have potentially eliminated was the Form 3 which processes comparatively quickly.

    Also, these timelines are based on paper Form 4s. No clue what timeline will actually look like if submitted via eForms.There are never any guarantees. I've seen 2-hop transfers take 3 years to complete before.

    Good luck! Start piling up ammo while you wait!
    I am not a lawyer.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: MAC 10 with Bower Suppressor Purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by MrRuffGunz View Post
    That is good to know. I also heard the transfer times between two FFLs was short as in 30 days or so but I could not get an actual number. The seller did tell me it would add more time for two transfers but I said what the hell I already have to wait 9 months why not wait 18 months ����
    Transfers between FFL's are typically 3 to 4 days. Realistically you are looking at around 15 months. Transfers from a civilian to an FFL/SOT typically takes about 4 to 6 months, then FFL/SOT to FFL/SOT is 4 days, then your FFL/SOT to you is 9+ months, so yeah, about 15 months give or take a month. Now that's a paper Form 4, we have no clue how the new eForm 4 system is going to pan out.

    That's why when someone calls us about buying an NFA item, we recommend they only purchase the item if it's "Currently on a Form 3" unless they don't mind an additional 4 to 7 month wait on top of their Form 4 wait period.
    Washington County Machine Guns & Tactical Range -- CMP Affiliated Club -- FFL 07 / FFL 10 / FEL 20 / SOT 02 / ITAR
    Largest MG Rental Business on the entire East Coast. M2HB, M9 Flamethrower, M67 Grenades, M240 Bravo, M249 SAW, M1919, RPD, M60, Bowling Ball Mortar.
    Now offering High-Explosive Classes (Open to the Public)

  10. #20
    Join Date
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    Tuscarora, Pennsylvania
    (Schuylkill County)
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    Default Re: MAC 10 with Bower Suppressor Purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by buckengr View Post
    Just for clarification, the only two options would have been:

    Option A:
    1. Seller -> His FFL (Florida)
    Form 4, $200 tax paid, ~9 months
    2. His FFL -> Your FFL (PA)
    Form 3, tax free, ~3 to 30 days
    3. Your FFL -> You
    Form 4, $200 tax paid, ~9 months

    Total time: 18-19 months (average)

    or

    Option B:
    1. Seller -> Your FFL (PA)
    Form 4, $200 tax paid, ~9 months
    2. Your FFL -> You
    Form 4, $200 tax paid, ~9 months

    Total time: 18 months (average)

    So the only "extra" transfer you could have potentially eliminated was the Form 3 which processes comparatively quickly.

    Also, these timelines are based on paper Form 4s. No clue what timeline will actually look like if submitted via eForms.There are never any guarantees. I've seen 2-hop transfers take 3 years to complete before.

    Good luck! Start piling up ammo while you wait!
    Thanks for your input* It*s actually 2 tax stamps one for the MG one for the CAN* The initial
    Transfer from Seller *-> FFL went pending 05-20-21* So i just passed the 8 month mark. Last time he called to check on it was JAN 20th and it was still pending

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