Gun Show Feedback/Suggestions

[Spaceballs]

Lots of fair points....redacted for space.....

You are right. I am not a serious buyer of an AK-47. I am a passive buyer. I am also the normal most common buyer. If I can't get one for the price I want, so be it. There is a 65 inch TV I want too. That $500 I have is going somewhere.

You are not only competing against other gun dealers. You are competing with everything else the consumer can spend discretionary income on.

And you are also right. I am not in the gun selling business. No doubt.

But I am the gun consumer. And I know what I will and won't spend money on and how much. I am an absolute expert in that.

You started this whole thread seemingly upset that consumers aren't buying the way you want them to.

The thread is filled with responses from me and other consumers telling you exactly why. And you don't like the answers.

But those are the answers. The consumers are giving you feedback. Take it. Combine it with your knowledge of the gun sales industry and cater to what we want the best you can.

Telling me your costs are higher is not going to get me to spend more money. It's going to get me to buy the big screen TV with my money.

You keep pointing out that I am an outside perspective here. You are 100% right. But sometimes you need that.

Every successful person business owner I have ever known seeks out an outside perspective to view their business model. Sometimes they make suggestions that are unfeasible because they don't fully understand the business. Many times they have ideas and viewpoints that make a lot of sense when you hear them outside the industry echo chamber. You are getting those perspectives here. Don't fight them. Use them.

As for gun shows being filled with knife dealers and jewelry makers and motivational patch sellers....there is a reason they keep showing up. They are presumably making money doing that, meaning there is enough interest in the gun show patrons to making those non gun tables financially viable. People like them.

There is an argument to be made that taking away those tables will reduce the number of overall gun show patrons, but leave you with more serious buyers who then attract even more other serious buyers. But those tables are making money. And the show promoter wants to maximize the number of people forking over $9 to get in.

Maybe you need a show that is a co-op of dealers that attract the serious buyer crowd and would rather have 10 serious buyers than 100 window shoppers.

But the show promoter wants 100 ANYBODYS and doesn't care what they buy once they are there. So maybe the underlying interests of the show promotor and different than the interests of the gun dealer.

[Marines55]

An aside, do you notice used gun prices by non FFL sellers are higher in areas that have higher Amish populations, since they do not have IDs , can not buy from FFL, so they pay more for whatever they can buy privately

you are absolutely spot on! I see private sellers that have tables at every show and they sell more guns than dealers do. they sell bigger quantity and fetch higher prices because they dont want to do the license and paperwork thing!

[Spaceballs]

Yup.

Older guys (both buyers and vendors) are hung up on the way things used to be. That ship has sailed a long, long time ago.

It's weird. Not everything has changed like this.

My other hobby is model trains. (Model train building gun lover here....ladies, the line forms to the left)

I have been going to model train shows for 40 years. They are EXACTLY the same today as when I was a kid. If anything they are bigger now.

They have the same dynamics as gun shows though. Dealers buy tables. Shoppers pay admission. Dealers all have similar stuff and are competing against each other. But they all make money.

And some train shows are so big they force the venders to "stay on topic" and only sell a certain scale of model trains that show is promoting. HO/N or O, but rarely both, and the random jewelry dealer is totally unwelcome because they run out of room in the venue for off topic tables.

The difference is that almost all of the model train stuff is used. (As far as train cars and engines, there are tables with new track and new modeling supplies, but the bulk of trains are used) I enjoy the hunt for the N scale Pennsylvania box car for $10 instead of buying a brand new one online for $15.

At a gun show it's all new stuff that I can find in 3 stores within ten minutes of my house. Probably for less.

Maybe gun shows need to cater to the used market where I might find something slightly unique from 5 years ago at a more reasonable price.

I don't know. I'm just spitballing here. And I don't know what the industry limitations are to that. Maybe there aren't used guns out there right now because everyone with an extra 10/22 sold it for $500 in 2020 when people thought we'd be hunting rabbits for food by now

[Marines55]

You are right. I am not a serious buyer of an AK-47. I am a passive buyer. I am also the normal most common buyer. If I can't get one for the price I want, so be it. There is a 65 inch TV I want too. That $500 I have is going somewhere.

You are not only competing against other gun dealers. You are competing with everything else the consumer can spend discretionary income on.

And you are also right. I am not in the gun selling business. No doubt.

But I am the gun consumer. And I know what I will and won't spend money on and how much. I am an absolute expert in that.

You started this whole thread seemingly upset that consumers aren't buying the way you want them to.

The thread is filled with responses from me and other consumers telling you exactly why. And you don't like the answers.

But those are the answers. The consumers are giving you feedback. Take it. Combine it with your knowledge of the gun sales industry and cater to what we want the best you can.

Telling me your costs are higher is not going to get me to spend more money. It's going to get me to buy the big screen TV with my money.

You keep pointing out that I am an outside perspective here. You are 100% right. But sometimes you need that.

Every successful person business owner I have ever known seeks out an outside perspective to view their business model. Sometimes they make suggestions that are unfeasible because they don't fully understand the business. Many times they have ideas and viewpoints that make a lot of sense when you hear them outside the industry echo chamber. You are getting those perspectives here. Don't fight them. Use them.

As for gun shows being filled with knife dealers and jewelry makers and motivational patch sellers....there is a reason they keep showing up. They are presumably making money doing that, meaning there is enough interest in the gun show patrons to making those non gun tables financially viable. People like them.

There is an argument to be made that taking away those tables will reduce the number of overall gun show patrons, but leave you with more serious buyers who then attract even more other serious buyers. But those tables are making money. And the show promoter wants to maximize the number of people forking over $9 to get in.

Maybe you need a show that is a co-op of dealers that attract the serious buyer crowd and would rather have 10 serious buyers than 100 window shoppers.

But the show promoter wants 100 ANYBODYS and doesn't care what they buy once they are there. So maybe the underlying interests of the show promotor and different than the interests of the gun dealer.

please take no offense when I say this but your ideals of what dealers need to do are not feasible in any way. you want us to conform to you but you dont want to budge and meet us halfway. with this in mind, my target audience isnt passive buyers. passive buyers only spend money when stuff is cheap and trust me...no matter how cheap it is, it will never be cheap enough for some.

while you are a gun consumer, you are certainly not the typical gun consumer. those people acknowledge how the market changes on a weekly base. they spend their money by what's on the tag.

tell me, do you want to pay $2 for a gallon of gas and wait until it gets to that point to buy? do you want to buy bread for 89 cents a loaf and hold off until it gets there? do you argue prices at target and Walmart or do you just pay it? what about at a place you go to eat or a hotel to stay at? they aren't going to argue prices. you either pay it or you dont get it.

bottom line is you seem to be getting offended by what im saying. im sorry you took offense to my transparent post because im not running my business your way. perhaps you can talk to the wholesalers and get prices down on things.....but I know that wont happen.

at this point, I appreciate your input but so much of it is so far off base, there isnt any need to continue the back and forth.

[Noah_Zark]

My observations over 55+ years of attending gun shows:

I used to watch a local gunsmith's table at a show back in the mid-late 1960s as a 12-16 yr old, and today I assist a couple FFLs with watching tables and waiting on trade. I've attended countless shows from firehall types to the National Gun Day show.

I completely agree that the nature of gun shows has changed over the past 15-20 years, and even from the 60s to the mid-80s. Back in the 60s, especially prior to 1968, shows were
a bunch of guys with tables of guns, parts, surplus, and reloading supplies. More like a flea market for guns and gun-related items. No Chinese products. The closest one can get to this type of show today is a small firehall show, but there's only a remote resemblance.

In the mid-1980s the importation of surplus military rifles, cheap SKSs and AKs, and cheap bulk ammo again changed the gun show landscape. These were the "heydays" of the gun show, when the Monroeville ExpoMart was filled on both the East and West halls and behind the Atrium. It took all day to get through. The Farm Show Complex shows had filled halls, and the new hall was at one time filled with vendor tables.

The availability of cheap surplus firearms and bulk ammo decreased since ~ 2013-2014, prices went up, interest went down. At one time, everybody was buying $49, $79, and $109 Russian M91-30 rifles, and I mean everybody. One vendor I assisted had two crates of them per show, and we usually took less than five home. The same rifles today are $300 - $500, and these are plain vanilla Soviet M91-30s, not Finnish M28-30s or M39s.

The Obama years coinciding with a couple of mass shootings saw big demand, and that's really when historically storefront FFLs started packing up on weekends. There were and are used guns, and prior to Obama's 2nd term, there was usually a differential between a new and used firearm of the same type. The past 5-6 years, not so much. In fact, I was in a fun shop just last weekend where a used stainless takedown Ruger 10-22 was priced $25 more than a new identical 10-22. I did not call it to their attention, because I know that pricing depends on how big the FFL is, and who their Ruger distributor is, and an special quantity deals that were going on. It illustrates the point that the new/used price gap has shrunk of late, due to demand. Just like used vehicles . . .

So today's gun show is comprised of traditional "show-only" FFLs, the unlicensed "private collector" dealers who are always there with a full rack or two of long guns, moms and pops who over the past year have cleaned out the closets to cash in on high ammo prices, and when promoters can't fill all the tables, the Bath remodelers, the Gutter Leaf Guard sellers, the moonshine distillers, and the annoying stun gun vendors are happy to oblige.

So what's "ruined" the American Gun Show? A number of factors:

1) Technology. Smart phones and the Interwebz enable the punters to spot-check prices on anything at any time. And there's nothing wrong with comparison shopping, but the punters do not take into account what makes one FFL price things higher than an on-line high-volume retailer or distributor. IOW, they don't understand the firearms business at the wholesale and retail levels, and may not understand business at all.

2) The punters and their general lack of understanding business. Some FFL buying their 10-22s from Davidson's or Zanders may be paying more per gun than someone can order one from Bud's, but expect anyone with that particular gun in the rack to meet or beat the on-line price, while forgetting the shipping cost that Bud's price doesn't include, but the dealer paid from his distributor.

2a) Everything is negotiable". I blame "Pawn Stars" for this "everything is negotiable" mentality of the general public. I was in a hardware store recently when a punter was trying to negotiate the price on a $10.99 snow shovel, wanting to pay only $7.99. The store owner told him, "Do you try that at Sheetz or WalMart? How does that work for you?"
Now, there's an expectation of negotiation at a gun show, but realistically only on used guns, parts, and other used merchandise. New guns and merchandise are usually priced by a dealer dependent on costs paid including shipping, and what he thinks the market will bear. But there is very little margin on new guns. Yet, some people just HAVE to get a deal.
I was once set up at a show where a punter was interested in a rifle that I had intentionally overpriced by $75-$100 to allow for negotiation room. He seemed OK, kept coming back, general chit-chat, and during one of these visits asked what was the best I could do? I dropped the price by the full $100 to my absolute minimum, which was my purchase price of the rifle. I had made $600 on a magazine article about repairing that rifle, so I just wanted to cover my cost. Next visit, the punter offered me $100 LESS than what I said was the best I could do. I resisted until he climbed to just $5 lower than my best, and I told him my best was what I had paid. Didn't matter. He said, "I just have to do better." I asked, "And put me in the hole on the gun?" "Yes," he said. I just stared at him. I seriously considered taking it home, but I knew that every time I looked at it, I'd remember this asshole punter. So I said, "It's THAT important to you?" "Yes," he said, so I said OK. I wasn't going to let $5 get in the way of the sale of a gun I no longer had use for, and I was up $595 with the article. But it illustrates how unreasonable some people are.

3) The internet. Yeah, already mentioned, but auction and reselling websites are the go-to for people with surplus and other gun parts to get the most return on their merchandise. I know of three now-elderly guys that had dabbled in GI surplus gun parts who no longer set up at shows. The sell their parts on the web, get paid electronically, with far less hassle of setting up, tending to the punters who want to talk politics while buying a tiny screw or spring, and then tearing down. The take-away is they aren't at a show, and the quality of shows suffers. GI parts dealers are but one example of vendors who don't sell at shows any longer.

4) Promoters. These range from the committee of VFD members who make a firehall show happen, to the commercial promoters like Eagle and C&E/Showmasters. IMO, an increasing problem is the trend to be scheduling more shows each weekend, with competing venues on the same side of the state, or the opposite sides of the state. There's a fundamental problem of a promoter scheduling a show every weekend, or having two teams run two shows at opposite ends of the state - they forget that the punters get paid usually twice a month or once every two weeks. Shows do best when people just got paid. Promoters: There is too much supply, because you force your principal resources to make choices of where to set up.

5) Dealers for the sake of filling tables. Promoters' principal resources are dealers. The better the quality of the dealer in terms of the desirability of their inventory, their value pricing, and having a reputation of being "a good dealer", the more punters they will attract to a given promoter's shows. Promoters need to understand this: Without quality dealers there is no gun show for them.
The more shows a promoter offers, he or she forces the dealers to make decisions on where to set up for a given weekend, and that means possibly driving dealers to a competitor promoter's show because a dealer "does better" at that show. The quality of the gun show is directly related to the quality of the dealers and the desirability of the merchandise. Promoters need to fill their tables to cover the expense of the venue, sure, I recognize that, but it's best done by cultivating relationships with quality dealers, not having another fudge vendor or gutter guard contractor, or Chinese knife seller. Promoters need to start working together to strategically schedule shows, because an antagonistic approach with show scheduling will see a promoter start to lose attendance because the "good dealers" aren't there.

5a) Niche. Dealers need to find a niche, something to specialize in that's in demand. A dealer can have a number of specialties - collectable Colts revolvers and M1 Rifles, for example. Our own Marines55 and ScotsGuards are two examples of gun show dealers who have this figured out. A dealer can be an exclusive vendor at a given show of a particular in-demand product. A dealer will not be successful doing gun shows with the same new guns that a dozen other dealers have at the same show. That just leads to the cell phone punters doing reverse auctions between dealers.

6) The Age Issue and changing tastes in firearms. The over-50 crowd still likes classic handguns and wood and steel hunting rifles. But these guys are aging, and the younger crowd tends to black guns and military surplus firearms. All of the pre-64 Winchester rifles that have been bringing (and still are) four-digit prices will see prices drop due to falling demand. And as more owners of these pre-64 Winchesters pass away, the market will become saturated, further driving pricing down. This will change the gun show landscape, starting pretty soon.
Another age factor at play is the age of most vendors. Next show you attend, look at every vendor. There aren't many young ones. Shows will start to disappear because the aren't being replaced by young dealers.
Yet another age factor is the one I'm in. At halfway to 134 I'm divesting, and have sold many, many firearms because I'm done with them. I have a very short "short list" of "bucket" guns to yet acquire. And where I used to not miss a show, I now miss far more shows than I attend, even pre-Covid. Other "men of a certain age" I know are doing the same thing. So even fewer punters to pay the entry fees.

Everything changes . . .

Noah

[R L Suehr]

I only go to gun shows to find something old, unique, or both. Most gun shows have very little, if any of that, anymore. If I want a modern gun, I'll go to my LGS and not have to pay a fee to stand in line and get bumped into by the droves of waddlegawkers that frequent gun shows. And most of the time, my LGS has better prices.

as stated in my post, if you can go to a show and find that old or unique item...what would you pay? most dealers are selling the old and collectable stuff online because local gun shows dont net the same price as gunbroker. some items sell for hundreds or thousands more on gunbroker than at a show. hence the problem that no serious buyers are at the show anymore.....just the "I want a sig at taurus prices" guys.

This is me when I go to a show. I like to find unique, nostalgic, stuff. I would say I'm a serious buyer (I've walked out of shows with multiple guns many times), but I haven't been to one in quite a while with much worth buying. If that's because it's all getting sold for top dollar on GunBroker, then I guess I'm just not in the market anymore. I'll stick to dealing with my lgs and classifieds here. New overpriced guns don't interest me at all.

[Spaceballs]

you want us to conform to you but you dont want to budge and meet us halfway.

Yes. Exactly. I am not willing to meet you half way. This is what I am saying. We are on the same page. I am the consumer. I will decide if the price is worth it to me.

But you are mad about it. I'm not. I still have $500 in my pocket. I'm good.

with this in mind, my target audience isnt passive buyers.

But gun show patrons are passive buyers.

So stop spending all that money to go to gun shows if they don't provide you the kind of buyer you want.

In this case you are the consumer. If you stop paying the gun show promotor, they promotor will change their tactics to keep you happy. Or they will ignore you as the consumer and wither up and fail.

while you are a gun consumer, you are certainly not the typical gun consumer. those people acknowledge how the market changes on a weekly base. they spend their money by what's on the tag.

Without having ever sold a gun in my life, I am 100% certain you are dead wrong.

There are 81.4 million gun owners in the United States.

If the typical consumer out of 81.4 million happily paid elevated prices at gun shows, we wouldn't be having this conversation where you were upset that you can find enough buyers willing to spend more money.

You'd be getting lessons on how to swim in your money bin full of gold coins from Scrooge McDuck right now.

tell me, do you want to pay $2 for a gallon of gas and wait until it gets to that point to buy? do you want to buy bread for 89 cents a loaf and hold off until it gets there?

I need gas and bread. I will pay what they cost because I need to get to work and need to eat.

I want an AK-47 but will go on just fine without one.

In fact, no one NEEDS an AK-47. It is always a WANT. If you try to model sales and marketing of a WANT product after a NEED product, you aren't going to be happy.

bottom line is you seem to be getting offended by what im saying.

I'm really not.

Your business is your business. I don't care.

As the consumer I am saying what I want and what I am willing to pay for it. Either a business says they can meet my needs or they can't and I go on just fine without it.

I'm not mad at you for not meeting my price. I understand why you can't. We're square here.

I find this an interesting conversation on business and marketing. Nothing more. Nothing less.
[/quote]

at this point, I appreciate your input but so much of it is so far off base, there isnt any need to continue the back and forth.

You haven't listened to my input.

I never said you should lower your prices.

I said you need to find a way to adapt to the changing marketplace to cater to the average consumer.

There is a big difference there.

You want me to spend an extra $250 on that AK-47? Incentivize me. Give me a great warranty. Throw in a budget carrying case. Give me a free box of 7.62. Host a range day somewhere where your customers can all come test their new guns with you there to ask questions or address problems....(where you could also sell gobs and gobs of ammo/targets/turnicates for the rookies) I don't know....SOMETHING other than saying "I had to buy a hotel room last night so you need to pay more for this gun"

Again....if I wasn't the average consumer....if the average consumer was like "$750 AK-47's! Holy crap where do I get in line? I'll take 4!" then you wouldn't have time to have this conversation with all the inventory you'd be moving.

But your core group of serious shooters that you cater to obviously isn't depleting your inventory.

I have seen so many businesses get frustrated that the market is changing and then try to fight it. They ALL fail. You have to find something that sets you apart. Either lower prices or create a reason why higher prices are worth it.

Do that and you won't have time to hate me online for being an average consumer.

I'd like that for you. You seem like a good guy who just wants to sell his wares.

The only thing that would upset me here is if you failed. I don't want to see a gun store fail (well...not usually...I can think of one exception where I'll sit in the parking lot laughing as they put up the out of business signs) And I don't want to see a fellow Marine fail.

I see you making what I think are marketing mistakes that I have seen 100 times. If you don't want to listen....I'm not your mom. And I absolutely hope I'm wrong and that you thrive in spite of me. I really do. Hand to God!

Good luck, brother. And I mean that sincerely.

[rellisonii]

One thing that amazes me is the whole dealers buy from distributor who buys from manufacturer. The distributor can charge one dealer more or less than another dealer because they can. The business model needs to change as well. If buds or any other super online retailer can sell whatever gun for hundreds under what you can, that means your distributor is ripping you off. If you are getting same wholesale price and it is just profit margin, then the FFL dealer has to decide if transfer fee is better than whatever your margin would be ordering it yourself. Any time I want a new gun, I give my preferred local FFL a call for their price and if within a reasonable amount of the online price I found then will order through them. For example My citori cxs I bought online for 300 less than my dealer would sell to me, so they got the transfer fee instead of the sale. I would be stupid to pay that much more for the same gun

[Spaceballs]

I would be stupid to pay that much more for the same gun

This.

It's a business, not a charity.

If you have to charge more, offer more. I go to an archery store. Small mom and pop. The prices kinda suck..I can beat the price of anything in that store by going to Bass Pro.

The owner knows it. I am sure he is selling as low as he can. His distributor prices are higher than Bass Pro's.

But he makes it worth my while by being friendlier than Bass Pro, being more knowledgeable than Bass Pro, by standing behind his repair work better, and by generally being a more interesting and fun shopping experience than Bass Pro.

Even still he is probably 10% - 15% over Bass Pro, not 50%.

There is a not so small gun store near me that runs prices 50% over Bass Pro's gun counter. Guess where I bought the .22lr recently I'd been wanting?

[Marines55]

Yes. Exactly. I am not willing to meet you half way. This is what I am saying. We are on the same page. I am the consumer. I will decide if the price is worth it to me.

But you are mad about it. I'm not. I still have $500 in my pocket. I'm good.



But gun show patrons are passive buyers.

So stop spending all that money to go to gun shows if they don't provide you the kind of buyer you want.

In this case you are the consumer. If you stop paying the gun show promotor, they promotor will change their tactics to keep you happy. Or they will ignore you as the consumer and wither up and fail.



Without having ever sold a gun in my life, I am 100% certain you are dead wrong.

There are 81.4 million gun owners in the United States.

If the typical consumer out of 81.4 million happily paid elevated prices at gun shows, we wouldn't be having this conversation where you were upset that you can find enough buyers willing to spend more money.

You'd be getting lessons on how to swim in your money bin full of gold coins from Scrooge McDuck right now.



I need gas and bread. I will pay what they cost because I need to get to work and need to eat.

I want an AK-47 but will go on just fine without one.

In fact, no one NEEDS an AK-47. It is always a WANT. If you try to model sales and marketing of a WANT product after a NEED product, you aren't going to be happy.



I'm really not.

Your business is your business. I don't care.

As the consumer I am saying what I want and what I am willing to pay for it. Either a business says they can meet my needs or they can't and I go on just fine without it.

I'm not mad at you for not meeting my price. I understand why you can't. We're square here.

I find this an interesting conversation on business and marketing. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I just dont even know what to say here. taking business advice from someone not in the business and who has never sold a gun in his life is suicide. I appreciate you being cheap. live with that. it wont get you far or what you want in life. the typical consumer knows that which is why gunbroker is thriving. it surely isnt filled with cheap skates only wanting to bid $500 on a specific gun. if the typical consumer was that way, the market price would be set at $500 and not $750. you seem to have a backwards view on business.

you dont determine the market at all. you aren't a serious buyer and as such your money doesn't come into play. serious people research and see prices, they dont bitch about "I remember the good old days when milk was a nickel and those gasoline powered motor coaches were available in any color you want as long as its black". that being said my market research tells me that there is a very specific target audience who pay fair prices and a very specific audience that bitch and moan to get money knocked off of already fair prices. businesses dont need the latter of the two to survive.

while we all have bills to pay and needs to buy, you fail to see at least one thing. prices aren't going back to the way they were 4 years ago. instead of price reductions, we saw price increases from several manufacturers this year. you should probably write them a letter explains how you only want to pay 70% of their MSRP. im sure they will laugh and tell you that they have 5 guys willing to pay sticker price for every 1 that doesn't. dont believe me? try buying a car right now.

my big take away from this post is that many of you are bitching about high prices. I cant control that. you cant control that. wholesalers and manufacturers cant control it either. wages are going up, gas is up, every single thing is up and yet you say you dont care about my costs. I dont need to give you something for free if you come into my shop. tell me does Walmart give you a free item when you buy stuff from them?

range day....thats a joke. insurance would be a nightmare. rising costs would dictate I need to charge more and you cant afford the prices now. that would be counter productive.

im not frustrated at all, but you seem to take it that way. thats not my point in this post just as complaints about prices are a moot point as well. yes, I have walked the shows and seen some guys with prices and I wonder where the heck they came up with that number. I am looking at sales prices on firearms every second of every single day so im going to wager I have a bit more experience in that area than you.

I also get that nothing in this world could make you come to a show. because it all boils down to a few bucks for you. thats great. if you are looking for guns at 60% of their value, then go buy them online. ship them to a dealer and pay the transfer fee. maybe your suggestion of ding something about that is the best and worst thing you said. if dealers were smart, they would refuse to do transfers from companies like PSA, and Buds. OR maybe all dealers should get together and say OK, we will do transfers for $150. your good deal doesn't turn out to be so good after that right? I will assume it would be more bitching form you about rising costs and that you dont care, etc. and so on.

so lets just say that gun shows die off all together due to any number of reasons. where are you going for your guns now? now that a show is no longer competition for your local guy, he can raise his prices. you either pay them, or you go without. you describe competition but you fail to look at the future and what it could mean for you. after all, you are the typical guy who is powering Walmart and Amazon, and passing over mom and pop shops because of pennies and dimes.