Gun Show Feedback/Suggestions

[benny swartz]

as having been on both sides of the fence . even dealt with a few of the commenters and the author .while criticism is good in any field or business . it can also break down the good intentions of the discussion . i agree with almost all of the original commenters and their thoughts . but i see it differently . if it is gun , hunting , prepper sportsman related . i am glad they are there selling their wares . dont even have issues with the toys etc . but maybe a certain section ? i can honestly say my biggest disappointment in a show ? was morgantown . half the tables were stickers and unrelated stuff . that being said . alot of shops in the return trip . made alot of money ! so it at least drew me in their direction .
biggest turnoff that everyone sees or experiences . tight aisles ! whether its during the china virus times or not . its annoying as hell for anyone behind me , to have to wait or walk at my gazing speed , or me at theirs . if the aisles are loose , like decembers harrisburg show , passing is easy . ps promoters for hburg , need to tell them to piss off on that middle room . the parking to the show walk , is bs . seen lots of elderly not make the whole show due to its total length . they arent the kind to ask for a scooter or help .
sometimes the prices are higher at a show , and it also has to be taken into consideration . the dealer has , table fees , gas on a large hauling rig , and normally hotel ,and food fees . so his prices arent going to always reflect the shop . that being said , you are at the show looking for it , so apparently , your shop didnt have one of those in stock ? we all laughed at the $35 per 1k of primers at every show , prior to 2019 ? didnt we ? now we are stuck with that for 200pcs !
the shows offer us a chance to possibly find that unicorn, we are seeking . i stop at almost everything used and new , pass by scopes and most knife stuff . but i will linger at the oddballs or parts bins . you probably do the opposite ? the variety is the name of the game . it ist about what we each want , its about what we all want . we just need to figure out how to revive them to see more of what we all want!

[Marines55]

The issue with gunshows is dealers want msrp+ for used guns and the max gunbroker price that a limited edition sold for for a normal run of the mill. Using auction prices to set prices is foolish, unless it's a new release the price will fall within a few weeks. It's also annoying when dealers say "my distributors charge me more than that" well then order it from site xxxx and make your $30 "paperwork fee". Or sit on your inventory. Knobcreek was my favorite gunshow most dealers there priced stuff so it would sell because they didn't want to pack it all back up. It also didn't cost $20 to walk through the whole thing in 10min like most gunshows.

dealers wanting high prices for used stuff may or may be due to many things. the most prevalent issue is that the public selling their guns want way more than they are worth (just look at the trader section and you will find all kinds of WAY over priced stuff there). dealers need inventory to set themselves apart from others so they have to pay more.

[Marines55]

If I may...and I don't intend this in a mean way...but you are looking at this all wrong.

The consumer defines any marketplace.

The vendor either finds a way to cater to that marketplace the way the consumer wants to be catered to or the vender goes out of business.

Sometimes the marketplace dries up entirely because no common ground can be found between the consumer and the vendor.

See indoor shopping malls for example. Consumers decided they weren't excited about them anymore. The stores at the mall didn't change their model (probably couldn't have changed enough to offset people not wanting to go) so the stores dried up and the malls closed.

It happens. Sometimes by the fault of no one. The market just changes.

The market always changes. Business either keeps up with the market or it goes out of business. But business can't tell the consumer what the market is going to be like. It just doesn't work

You are obviously frustrated at being a gun show vendor. But you aren't changing. If you don't find the way to change to match the marketplace, you will continue to be frustrated.

I am reminded of a model train store in Baltimore called Klein's. When I was a kid this was THE place to buy model trains and supplies. The store was always packed. It was a cash cow. Then the internet came in and business declined. The store nearly went under. But they pivoted and started selling online. Over the next 15 years they grew into one of the biggest most popular model train vendors on the internet. They moved to a warehouse big enough to handle the volume and changed the retail store into a small section on the side the warehouse. Then the retail store started to shrink to make more room for the warehouse. Two years ago the retail store closed and the business is 100% online. They make more money than Forrest Gump.

The business changed it's model completely to accommodate the marketplace. And they are thriving.

If they had stayed a retail only store they would have gone under 20 years ago.

Think Palmetto State Armory for trains.

I am not saying you have to become an internet megastore. I am saying you have to figure out how to change your gun show model to make it profitable. The consumer is not going to change to match your model. Business just doesn't work that way.

You can hate how the market is evolving. But if you don't evovle with it, it will evolve without you. And complaining that consumers are just too cheap to be your customer under your business model won't help.

while I can see your point, I believe it is a bit off. the shift is already happening and many business are adjusting to accommodate. The reason malls took a hit is because the big box stores have little overhead on a warehouse and pick/pack/ship operation.....just like Amazon which so many people bitch about because they are putting all of the little guys out of business...same with Walmart. storefronts cost money as do employees. so they shifted to an internet website for 24 hour shopping. that business model doesn't support small business. So, the big guys like PSA and Buds buy pallets of guns and offer them for less than wholesale....YES, LESS than wholesale. simply because they have the buying power. so the public goes online and sees said gun for a hundred or two less than the same ones at the show and says "will you match this?". obviously we cant because our wholesale cost is more than that. PSA and BUDS does nothing more than fuck the small guy. and then, the public thinks that oh well, my dealer still gets his $30 on a transfer. let me tell you that no one can survive on doing transfers. so, like you said...they go out of business. then where do you ship those "awesome deals" you got online?

in order to combat that issue, many dealers that went to shows before are now selling on gunbroker because they net 50% to 200% more versus a local show. for instance, I had an SVT 40 that I put on my table for a local show years ago for $650. it was a nice example and I knew it would fetch much more on the internet, but its a local show and guys are coming to look for deals. it sat all weekend and was finger banged by everyone. got several guys offer less and I said no. I ended up taking it home and listed it online. it sold for $1200 in 12 minutes. that was one of my first lessons that even when I offer a great deal, there are still guys who want it for nothing. this is why I mentioned that dealers are selling their best stuff on gunbroker. we do it for consignors as well. obviously the consignor wants the most he can get for his item, but I know that they wont get that at a local sale. so we list it on gunbroker and the item sells within hours or days for far more than they wanted. everyone is happy.

as for costs to get to a show, yes they are high....and this year they went up on all angles from show table fees to hotel stays, meals, tolls, etc. we adapted and cut some costs because we had to. but as I said earlier, new production stuff doesn't have a big profit margin....sometimes less than $50. when you have to spend $1200 just to get to the show and setup, you have to move a ton of stuff just to break even. the new stuff is what sells at some shows and sits at others. that is all in knowing your customer base and just comes with experience. the buying public probably thinks that gun dealers make a ton of money....but they are really incorrect. some people may think its easy for dealers to come to a show....they are also incorrect. in order to be transparent, I will tell you that it takes a boat load of work, prepping, and financial risk to attend any show. sometimes the gamble pays off. sometimes it doesn't and thats when you start looking at what shows perform best and you have to cut the ones that dont. this may be what we are seeing right now as dealers continue to cut under performing shows.

what the vast majority of people dont realize, is that there are a finite amount of gun dealers. there are no 22 year old guys coming into the market with $100,000 cash to start their business. it is extremely tough to start a gun shop and make it successful due to the aforementioned issues, most guys that do start, go under very quickly due to nothing more than their customer base not being able to support a 20% profit margin for them. (for those doing quick math, 20% profit margin is way more than a transfer fee.....this is why you cant survive on transfer fees). so we evolve and buy unique items that make the shop a destination and not just another gun shop. one thing we can all agree on is why should we sell an item for $500 at a local show to a guy who doesn't want to offer a fair price, when I could sit at the shop and sell said item for $900 on gunbroker.

auction prices do indeed set the market value wether we want to admit it or not. yes, there are flukes and one item will sell for way more than its worth which is why you cant take the top dollar price or the lowest price on sold item values. you take the median price of all sold results and that is true fair market value. yes, I understand that you can sometimes get good deals on gunbroker. I watch it religiously and sink a hundred hours or more into it every week....often times netting nothing at all because it all sold for more than I can pay. there are deals out there but they aren't easy to find. that being said, if I walk into a show and see a nice item and I want it...I will pay the price because I know I will sink hundreds of hours into trying to find the same thing....my time is worth more than a few bucks so I buy it on the spot.

I appreciate everyones feedback on these issues, and perhaps you are correct that I am frustrated with gun shows. but the reason I am frustrated isnt because of the market place. my frustrations lie elsewhere and are all out my control to fix. what I can control is the price on my items which I price within market values....many well below. yes, there are times I make less than $20 on guns, and I remember one gun I made 4% profit on and a customer still beat the shit out of me to get it for less. i have some real true nightmare stories about "customers" but I also have more great stories about customers who walk away happy with their item. I am not the typical dealer though and I get more satisfaction from giving customer service and interacting with people than I do selling tons of stuff, which is kind of why I asked for the feedback. most guys who are only in it for money dont care about feedback and are near sighted in business and we all know that doesn't go well for anything.

[Spaceballs]

dealers wanting high prices for used stuff may or may be due to many things. the most prevalent issue is that the public selling their guns want way more than they are worth (just look at the trader section and you will find all kinds of WAY over priced stuff there). dealers need inventory to set themselves apart from others so they have to pay more.

But people aren't selling things for more than they are worth.

If someone sells something for $xx.xx then that is what it is worth. That is the market setting the value.

Sometimes the market prices out half the buyers. Take me right now.... I want an AK-47. I don't really need one. I just kinda want one. But they run $750 for the low end models and I don't want one bad enough to spend $750+

The market has priced me out. Oh well. Vendors selling AK-47's for $750+ are obviously finding other buyers willing to pay that or the prices would drop. Good for them.

As for your fuel prices, hotel costs, and table fees at a gun show.....again...please don't take this as being mean.....take this as honest feedback from a consumer.... I don't care about your costs. I care about how much I spend.

Back to my AK-47. Can you offer me one for $500? If so, I'll buy one. If no, then I won't. I understand you may not be able to sell one for $500 because of your costs. If your price to your distributor plus overhead (store rent, show table fees, hotel costs, etc) make your cost $600 and your ROE requires you to make $150 profit to make it worth your time, then I fully understand why you have to sell it for $750 and why you can't sell it to me for $500.

I'm not mad at you. The product just costs more than I'm willing to spend. I don't drive a Maserati for the same reason. It is not on me to just give you an extra $250 because your costs are higher. It's on you to find a way to either lower you costs or to attract different buyers willing to happily hand over the extra $250.

I don't know how you do that. I have never sold a gun. I am not in that market space. I don't know the business.

And the gun show patron tends to be a bargain hunter, not a big splurge spender. So higher costs are not compatible with finding buyers at gun shows.

But you are in that business. That business is changing, and it doesn't matter if you like the change or not. You have to find a way to adjust to the change. I have no idea how. But I am 100% certain that if you try to resist the change and force the old market style, you will lose.

It happens to businesses large and small every day.

Think AT&T. They sold long distance service for 40 years. Then cell phones made that entire market irrelevant. Now AT&T sells cell phone service.

MCI used to sell long distance service. They didn't pivot to the market change. They kept trying to sell long distance service to the ever declining customer base. And they went belly up until Verizon bought them out and absorbed their network.

Again, I'm not trying to be a dick about this to you. I just see you trying to force the 2010 market on the 2022 customers and I think you're going to lose trying to do that. I don't want you to.

Semper Fi, brother.

[Ronin]

And the gun show patron tends to be a bargain hunter, not a big splurge spender. So higher costs are not compatible with finding buyers at gun shows.

^^^This 100%^^^

Back in the day, you went to a gun show to find a bargain or to buy surplus that your average gun shop didn't carry. Somewhere in the last 20 years, this changed to sellers offering the same stuff as a LGS, but pricing themselves at or above MSRP. Maybe it was because of the panic buying of the Obama era or whatever, but there are very few deals at gun shows anymore. I also won't shop at a LGS that prices themselves above what other shops are selling for.

[Marines55]

But people aren't selling things for more than they are worth.

If someone sells something for $xx.xx then that is what it is worth. That is the market setting the value.

Sometimes the market prices out half the buyers. Take me right now.... I want an AK-47. I don't really need one. I just kinda want one. But they run $750 for the low end models and I don't want one bad enough to spend $750+

The market has priced me out. Oh well. Vendors selling AK-47's for $750+ are obviously finding other buyers willing to pay that or the prices would drop. Good for them.

As for your fuel prices, hotel costs, and table fees at a gun show.....again...please don't take this as being mean.....take this as honest feedback from a consumer.... I don't care about your costs. I care about how much I spend.

Back to my AK-47. Can you offer me one for $500? If so, I'll buy one. If no, then I won't. I understand you may not be able to sell one for $500 because of your costs. If your price to your distributor plus overhead (store rent, show table fees, hotel costs, etc) make your cost $600 and your ROE requires you to make $150 profit to make it worth your time, then I fully understand why you have to sell it for $750 and why you can't sell it to me for $500.

I'm not mad at you. The product just costs more than I'm willing to spend. I don't drive a Maserati for the same reason. It is not on me to just give you an extra $250 because your costs are higher. It's on you to find a way to either lower you costs or to attract different buyers willing to happily hand over the extra $250.

I don't know how you do that. I have never sold a gun. I am not in that market space. I don't know the business.

And the gun show patron tends to be a bargain hunter, not a big splurge spender. So higher costs are not compatible with finding buyers at gun shows.

But you are in that business. That business is changing, and it doesn't matter if you like the change or not. You have to find a way to adjust to the change. I have no idea how. But I am 100% certain that if you try to resist the change and force the old market style, you will lose.

It happens to businesses large and small every day.

Think AT&T. They sold long distance service for 40 years. Then cell phones made that entire market irrelevant. Now AT&T sells cell phone service.

MCI used to sell long distance service. They didn't pivot to the market change. They kept trying to sell long distance service to the ever declining customer base. And they went belly up until Verizon bought them out and absorbed their network.

Again, I'm not trying to be a dick about this to you. I just see you trying to force the 2010 market on the 2022 customers and I think you're going to lose trying to do that. I don't want you to.

Semper Fi, brother.

I see what you are trying to convey here. however, and dont take this the wrong way...you Sid you are not in the business and your assessment shows that. you dont truly understand what goes on and your comparisons of MCI, AT&T and shopping malls couldn't be any more off base. that being said, business is changing and no, im not forcing anything on anyone....nce again you are off base and misunderstand what im driving at. I believe the gun show bargain hunters are a dying breed. maybe that is why the shows are changing. what im trying to illustrate to you is that the "bargain hunters" are in part the reason why the show scene is changing.

Please dont take this as me being disrespectful, but you should care about rising costs of sellers. if you dont change with the market, then you dont get what you want. you are correct that sellers will find buyer for $750 AKs....you more than likely wont find one for $500. BUT, you hit the nail on the head....you aren't a serious buyer. a serious buyer will spend the money....someone who is passive wont buy one.

your comments also contradict themselves. you said that auction prices dont set the market. but now you say if it sells for "X.XX" then that is what the value is. if it sells for $1000 on gunbroker then that is what it is worth correct? ring by what you said, that should be how it works. however, there are some who think they just need to get a deal or they wont buy it. whatever it is that drives some people, it sure is an interesting time to be in the market.

[rellisonii]

An aside, do you notice used gun prices by non FFL sellers are higher in areas that have higher Amish populations, since they do not have IDs , can not buy from FFL, so they pay more for whatever they can buy privately

[Emptymag]

^^^This 100%^^^

Back in the day, you went to a gun show to find a bargain or to buy surplus that your average gun shop didn't carry. Somewhere in the last 20 years, this changed to sellers offering the same stuff as a LGS, but pricing themselves at or above MSRP. Maybe it was because of the panic buying of the Obama era or whatever, but there are very few deals at gun shows anymore. I also won't shop at a LGS that prices themselves above what other shops are selling for.

Yup.

Older guys (both buyers and vendors) are hung up on the way things used to be. That ship has sailed a long, long time ago.


One can make the argument that "the big guys ruined it for the little guys" (Walmart/Palmetto State Armory) until you are blue in the face, but it doesn't change anything - that's life. Deal with it somehow, or move on, because crying about how "unfair" it is that YOU can't sell for less doesn't make buyers want to pay more - lots more - for your goods.

And I will add that I have done quite well buying right here from our classifieds. There isn't a single gun I've bought that hasn't brought comments about what a good deal it was. If you're paying too much for something in the classifieds, that's YOUR fault, not the seller's.

During the "transition phase" of gun shows - when it was becoming obvious that gun shows were no longer the place to find deals, I still liked to go and walk around - it's like a museum where you can touch things (after asking, of course) and buy those things if you wanted.
In time, the admission prices rose to the point where it was no longer worth the price of admission just to LOOK at things. I already know that there's virtually nothing I can buy at a gun show that I can't find online for much less, so I'm not paying $15 dollars to walk around, inhaling BO for an hour or two, and driving home with nothing.

This same story/argument has been hashed out many times over the years that I've been on this forum.
I'm actually surprised that gun shows are still viable at all.

[JoshIronshaft]

An aside, do you notice used gun prices by non FFL sellers are higher in areas that have higher Amish populations, since they do not have IDs , can not buy from FFL, so they pay more for whatever they can buy privately

Amish guys were building my barn and on a lunch break I dragged out rifles with suppressors for them to try. They went nuts for the suppressors and subsonic ammo. Then they were deeply saddened to learn the requirements to purchase a suppressor.

[JoshIronshaft]

I'm actually surprised that gun shows are still viable at all.

I can't find expired parachute flares 3 for $20 anywhere else! Not joking. I love those things.