Need help understanding "Great Bodily Injury", et. al.

[kis312]

long story. i appreciate all who actually read it.

I was in a situation just a few weeks ago where I decided to unholster my concealed carry to defend myself. The gun stayed low/ready and I did not fire. Police were called, lots of them showed up, no charges/arrests made.

In the end, one of the officers told me that I did everything right and that he told the other party that he was lucky to have not gotten shot.

Even given this, I feel like I was completely unprepared and did everything wrong. I am looking to fix this in case there is a next time.

To that end, the other week I took a "use of force" class -- it taught me a lot. But it ends up I'm confused now about "great bodily injury" and am looking for more clarification. It doesn't even need to be free, I'm willing to pay for another course if someone can recommend one.

I explained my scenario in the class, and the instructor said that he too felt that I was justified in unholstering low/ready.

But the part that confuses me is about when I would have been justified in firing. I guess I need to explain the scenario I was in.

A guy road-raged at me. I was only suspicious at first-- I noticed him following me for more than 2 miles. I didn't think too much of it besides that it was weird. I was going to Walmart and arrived at their parking lot. I parked in one spot and he followed me, so I moved into a different spot a few lanes over and he followed me again, staying two parallel spots away from me (one spot between our cars, both of us facing the same direction). So I stayed parked in the car (about 30 seconds) and the other guy stayed in his car. I figured it was all about nothing and I told the 3 of my kids in the car with me that it was fine and we could just go in the store.

parkinglot.jpg

I got out and was at the front driver's side head-light of my car when he opened his door, stood up facing me, and started screaming at me. He was a similar age/size as me. I just looked at him speechless. The kids had opened their doors but did not get out of the car-- they closed their doors by themselves and stayed in the car.

At one point -- and at the time I didn't know why -- he stopped screaming and I saw his face drop- his eyebrows slanted in anger and his mouth puckered. He left his door heading towards the back of his car as to come towards me between our two cars. I shouted (literally top of my lungs) "stay back! get away from me!" He continued around the back of his car and into the isle separating his car from my car. As soon as I saw his whole body with nothing between him and my car, I unholstered my weapon and shouted "Help!". He immediately reversed direction and went back towards his car door. I was thinking at the time that if he continued to approach me and/or went towards my car doors to get my kids, I might have to use my weapon.

This was probably the most scary part. I didn't know if I was allowed to "hold him" there (ordering him to the ground or something) because I didn't know if he was going back into his car to get his own weapon. I didn't know what I could do. So he got into his car he leaned over towards the passenger seat. That really scared me so I moved from the front driver's side headlight on my car over to behind the front passenger tire. I was thinking that if I saw him with a gun, I would have to use my weapon. But he just picked up a phone and started recording me. After a few seconds of staring at each other, he drove away.

A witness came to me, he said he saw the whole thing and asked if I was okay. I asked if he would stay until the police came and he said he would not. that was weird.

Then another witness came, she said she saw and heard the whole thing. She did stay until the police came and told them what she saw.

It wasn't until I told the story to my wife that I realized why the guy's face changed. My kids said that the only thing I said to him was "Don't make me do this-- Don't make me do this". I distinctly remember *thinking* that, but didn't realize I said it out loud. I think that is what really raged him.

So my instructor in the use of force class said that even if the other party charged at me or even starting punching me in the face that I would not have been justified in firing because getting hit/punched was not "great bodily injury".

I expressed concern that if the other party would have came close enough to me to take my own weapon, how am I not supposed to fire?

I am completely dumbfounded about having to "take a beating" before deadly force can be used -- how do I know if one punch from the other guy wouldn't knock me out and he'd kick me to death?

Is it realistic that I would have gotten charged and/or a jury found me guilty if I would have fired at the guy if he continued to approach me -- or touched my car door handles where my kids were?

[icp4life162005]

long story. i appreciate all who actually read it.

I was in a situation just a few weeks ago where I decided to unholster my concealed carry to defend myself. The gun stayed low/ready and I did not fire. Police were called, lots of them showed up, no charges/arrests made.

In the end, one of the officers told me that I did everything right and that he told the other party that he was lucky to have not gotten shot.

Even given this, I feel like I was completely unprepared and did everything wrong. I am looking to fix this in case there is a next time.

To that end, the other week I took a "use of force" class -- it taught me a lot. But it ends up I'm confused now about "great bodily injury" and am looking for more clarification. It doesn't even need to be free, I'm willing to pay for another course if someone can recommend one.

I explained my scenario in the class, and the instructor said that he too felt that I was justified in unholstering low/ready.

But the part that confuses me is about when I would have been justified in firing. I guess I need to explain the scenario I was in.

A guy road-raged at me. I was only suspicious at first-- I noticed him following me for more than 2 miles. I didn't think too much of it besides that it was weird. I was going to Walmart and arrived at their parking lot. I parked in one spot and he followed me, so I moved into a different spot a few lanes over and he followed me again, staying two parallel spots away from me (one spot between our cars, both of us facing the same direction). So I stayed parked in the car (about 30 seconds) and the other guy stayed in his car. I figured it was all about nothing and I told the 3 of my kids in the car with me that it was fine and we could just go in the store.

parkinglot.jpg

I got out and was at the front driver's side head-light of my car when he opened his door, stood up facing me, and started screaming at me. He was a similar age/size as me. I just looked at him speechless. The kids had opened their doors but did not get out of the car-- they closed their doors by themselves and stayed in the car.

At one point -- and at the time I didn't know why -- he stopped screaming and I saw his face drop- his eyebrows slanted in anger and his mouth puckered. He left his door heading towards the back of his car as to come towards me between our two cars. I shouted (literally top of my lungs) "stay back! get away from me!" He continued around the back of his car and into the isle separating his car from my car. As soon as I saw his whole body with nothing between him and my car, I unholstered my weapon and shouted "Help!". He immediately reversed direction and went back towards his car door. I was thinking at the time that if he continued to approach me and/or went towards my car doors to get my kids, I might have to use my weapon.

This was probably the most scary part. I didn't know if I was allowed to "hold him" there (ordering him to the ground or something) because I didn't know if he was going back into his car to get his own weapon. I didn't know what I could do. So he got into his car he leaned over towards the passenger seat. That really scared me so I moved from the front driver's side headlight on my car over to behind the front passenger tire. I was thinking that if I saw him with a gun, I would have to use my weapon. But he just picked up a phone and started recording me. After a few seconds of staring at each other, he drove away.

A witness came to me, he said he saw the whole thing and asked if I was okay. I asked if he would stay until the police came and he said he would not. that was weird.

Then another witness came, she said she saw and heard the whole thing. She did stay until the police came and told them what she saw.

It wasn't until I told the story to my wife that I realized why the guy's face changed. My kids said that the only thing I said to him was "Don't make me do this-- Don't make me do this". I distinctly remember *thinking* that, but didn't realize I said it out loud. I think that is what really raged him.

So my instructor in the use of force class said that even if the other party charged at me or even starting punching me in the face that I would not have been justified in firing because getting hit/punched was not "great bodily injury".

I expressed concern that if the other party would have came close enough to me to take my own weapon, how am I not supposed to fire?

I am completely dumbfounded about having to "take a beating" before deadly force can be used -- how do I know if one punch from the other guy wouldn't knock me out and he'd kick me to death?

Is it realistic that I would have gotten charged and/or a jury found me guilty if I would have fired at the guy if he continued to approach me -- or touched my car door handles where my kids were?

Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6.
Especially if it was my children's safety on the line.

The 'take the beating' is liberal cuck mentality. Don't fall for the psychological trap.

How many people have died from the knockout game?
Fists are deadly weapons.

Thank you for sharing.

[Boots_DE]

I agree with you. If he had continued coming toward you or your children after being warned I believe you would have been justified in using deadly force.
He had already exhibited his great anger toward you and at that time you have no idea why or how far he would be willing to go to take out his anger on you or your family. "Great bodily harm" could be just being knocked to the ground and hitting your head on the pavement. IMHO, Any physical attack on my person is not justified and is not the way to resolve any conflict. Childhood fistfights should never be a part of adulthood because they are unjustified and easily lead to great bodily harm.
Anyone that is an aggressor in a situation like that, who has been plainly warned to stop, has the option of retreating and calling the cops on his own for whatever redress might be available to him, or he can just leave and go about his business.
He may have videoed you for whatever reason--intimidation, or perhaps to document you with a gun, but after he has calmed down and realized he picked the wrong guy to harass he probably just deleted the video. If it does show up in the future I sincerely doubt, from your description, that it will show anything illegal in your actions.
Like you, I don't want to shoot anyone, but sometimes you need to instantly prepare and do your best to deescalate the situation as best you can while maintaining low-ready. Anyone within about 21 feet of you that threatens you is cause for concern and an immediate but appropriate response. I think you did fine.

P.S. I agree with comments posted later in this thread that a better way to handle the situation you described is to not have gotten out of your car in the first place and driven to a safe place. My comments were more in line with suddenly and unexpectedly (as can sometimes happen) finding yourself in a threatening situation. As they say 'everyone has 20/20 hindsight', but it's too easy for us to miss what we later see as plain signs that someone is indeed showing signs of becoming a real threat. For most of us, a situation such as you described is so far removed from our personal experiences that our mind is slow to fully grasp the reality of what is actually happening. So, don't beat yourself up too much about this but definitely use it as a learning experience to help you process more quickly any similar situation that might befall you in the future. I feel sure your post will be a help to me!

[middlefinger]

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as soon as you were confident he was following you and you were feeling threatened you should have called 911

[GunLawyer001]

I wouldn't even leave my car parked unguarded in the lot, after the guy followed you across the lot.

Plenty of Walmarts, go to another one, especially if you have the kids along. Drive to the police station, he'll give up following you.

[kis312]

.

as soon as you were confident he was following you and you were feeling threatened you should have called 911

This is the first thing my wife said. It just didnt ocurr to me at the time while driving. and I didnt feel threatened until he got out of the car. But I know it should have.

[kis312]

I wouldn't even leave my car parked unguarded in the lot, after the guy followed you across the lot.

I didn't even think of that either. Like I said, I did everything wrong. didn't even consider that also.

[GunLawyer001]

I didn't even think of that either. Like I said, I did everything wrong. didn't even consider that also.

If you suspect that someone is following you, never go home until you've lost him, or else he'll know where you live, and come back later with gasoline and matches.

Don't feel obliged to go to Walmart or a restaurant just because that was your plan. If you have a key job interview or are meeting an important client, then play it by ear, but it's often an option to change your itinerary, once you realize there's a threat. You control where you go, and you can go places he doesn't want to go, like police stations, or parking garages where you have to pay, or toll roads. Some crazies will stop following you if they have to pay out of pocket.

Our current governments generally view gun owners as the bad guys, and shooting an unarmed person just because he was angry and shouting and walking towards you, is often not going to go over well, especially in jurisdictions like Philadelphia, where they believe that your ability to own guns at all is a loophole that they want to close.

[Noah_Zark]

. . . I am looking to fix this in case there is a next time.

This is not legal advice, this is situational defensive advice.

STAY IN THE VEHICLE AND PREFERABLY KEEP MOVING.

Don't stop or park where the aggressor can block you in. Nothing you needed at WalMart was as important as your safety and that of your children.

If that happens, call 911 and report the incident. If you have two cell phones available, call with one and video the aggressor with the other.

If moving, call 911 as you're driving around and tell them you're being followed by a person you believe to be intent on harming you, and update them where you are and what turns you make onto what roads. Describe your vehicle if you can't describe the aggressor's. Keep moving and do as the dispatcher directs you. The aggressor will likely get tired, and will lose interest quickly if LE vehicles suddenly appear. Alternatively, if you know the area keep driving to the nearest police station and call them from on the way or from outside.

Chances are the aggressor will drive on by. If you get LE involved, ask them for an escort home, or at least to their jurisdictional line.

Noah

[Daycrawler]

Here is the Pa. Crimes code for aggravated assault.

§ 2702. Aggravated assault.

(a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of aggravated assault if he:

(1) attempts to cause SERIOUS BODILY INJURY to another, or causes such injury intentionally, knowingly or recklessly under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life;

(2) attempts to cause or intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causes serious bodily injury to any of the officers, agents, employees or other persons enumerated in subsection (c) or to an employee of an agency, company or other entity engaged in public transportation, while in the performance of duty;

(3) attempts to cause or intentionally or knowingly causes bodily injury to any of the officers, agents, employees or other persons enumerated in subsection (c), in the performance of duty;

(4) attempts to cause or intentionally or knowingly causes bodily injury to another with a deadly weapon;

(5) attempts to cause or intentionally or knowingly causes bodily injury to a teaching staff member, school board member or other employee, including a student employee, of any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school while acting in the scope of his or her employment or because of his or her employment relationship to the school;

(6) attempts by physical menace to put any of the officers, agents, employees or other persons enumerated in subsection (c), while in the performance of duty, in fear of imminent serious bodily injury;

(7) uses tear or noxious gas as defined in section 2708(b) (relating to use of tear or noxious gas in labor disputes) or uses an electric or electronic incapacitation device against any officer, employee or other person enumerated in subsection (c) while acting in the scope of his employment;

(8) attempts to cause or intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causes bodily injury to a child less than six years of age, by a person 18 years of age or older; or

(9) attempts to cause or intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causes serious bodily injury to a child less than 13 years of age, by a person 18 years of age or older.

(b) Grading.--Aggravated assault under subsection (a)(1), (2) and (9) is a felony of the first degree. Aggravated assault under subsection (a)(3), (4), (5), (6), (7) and (8) is a felony of the second degree.


I disagree with your instructor based on the cases I personally know of. A guy I knew was punched in the head in a bar fight. It was mutual combat. He died, no charges were filed. A girl I knew her fiancée was sucker punched in a bar fight. The victim stood there and did not engage the actor. It was not mutual combat. He died and the man was charged and sentenced to 10 plus years as I recall.
***FISTS ARE DEADLY WEAPONS*** take what you will from that.


Here are two perfect examples or engaging in or not engaging in a fight. In the second case perhaps fighting may have saved the man's life. We will never know.

Excellent advice has already been given and I agree. keep going, call 911, find the Police and so on.

I will also recommend some type of carry insurance. I use U.S. Law Shield. Shop around and find out what works for you.




I'll add one more, dash cams. Front and rear if possible. Now a days, the slightest infraction can cause someone to lose their shit.


IANAL