Man Charged for Making, Selling ‘Ghost’ Guns

[GunLawyer001]

Actually it is not illegal to sell them, you just have to do certain things to be able to do it. If you build a "ghost gun" and later decide you don't want it anymore, you can sell it. You just have to engrave the name of the person who built it along with their city and state and also put a serial number on it. Then it's perfectly legal to sell it.

The guy who was nabbed just flat did everything wrong/illegal after purchasing the frames/receivers as Noah alluded. If you want to buy 1, 10, 100 or 1000 80% receivers/frames and build guns for yourself, all perfectly legal. But it is apparent that he was not doing this as a hobby or to build himself a collection of self built guns.

A non-SOT who builds a gun for himself, then later decides to sell it, is not required to engrave that info on the gun. The engraving requirements apply to Title II NFA making, and to those in the Title I business.

If you sell a single gun that you made yourself, you have to comply with state and federal transfer requirements, you can't sell to a prohibited person or someone from another state. In PA, handguns have to go through an FFL, who already has instructions on how to transfer a gun that lacks a serial number.

The second such gun that you make and sell, starts you down a very risky road.

I'm all about freedom, but nobody should go get artificial profits from selling to people who are only willing to pay more because they can't get what they want through legal channels. Those flea market guys selling used shotguns for 3X new retail, pretty much know that their buyer is barred from buying at an FFL.

[Xringshooter]

A non-SOT who builds a gun for himself, then later decides to sell it, is not required to engrave that info on the gun. The engraving requirements apply to Title II NFA making, and to those in the Title I business.

If you sell a single gun that you made yourself, you have to comply with state and federal transfer requirements, you can't sell to a prohibited person or someone from another state. In PA, handguns have to go through an FFL, who already has instructions on how to transfer a gun that lacks a serial number.

The second such gun that you make and sell, starts you down a very risky road.

I'm all about freedom, but nobody should go get artificial profits from selling to people who are only willing to pay more because they can't get what they want through legal channels. Those flea market guys selling used shotguns for 3X new retail, pretty much know that their buyer is barred from buying at an FFL.

Thank you, point taken, bad info from the last PSP/BATFE meeting at Bucknell. Slap myself, should have known better than to rely on them. Guess I better reread the regs for myself.

[ExFlyinguy]

Thank you, point taken, bad info from the last PSP/BATFE meeting at Bucknell. Slap myself, should have known better than to rely on them. Guess I better reread the regs for myself.

Maybe you could look into this further Ron. I am in agreement with GL, but I seem to remember them(ATF) making notice of rule making (one of those comment periods recently) where they were dictating that private gun builds were going to require the same markings. Never did hear what became of that.

[Grizzlytrap]

So if I build a polymer 80 "glock" I'm good to go and IF I don't want it, I can sell it? What if I build a AR 15 pistol with brace and Polymer 80 Lower, same thing.. Right?

[GunLawyer001]

Maybe you could look into this further Ron. I am in agreement with GL, but I seem to remember them(ATF) making notice of rule making (one of those comment periods recently) where they were dictating that private gun builds were going to require the same markings. Never did hear what became of that.

It's been a while since I had occasion to delve into the relevant regs, but my recollection is that it hinges on the terms of art "maker" and "manufacturer" and whether you have an FFL/SOT and whether you're engaged in the business for profit.

The 1968 GCA was mostly about the network of FFL's, regulated by the Feds under the Commerce Clause. So they could prohibit an FFL selling to an 18 year old, but they couldn't make it illegal for an 18 year old to possess a gun. (They expanded their own authority over time, in a zero-sum game that we are not going to enjoy in the end stages.)

In theory, ATF only has power over interstate commerce and taxation; in practice, they do whatever they can get away with, and moving ATF from Treasury to Justice was a pretty big flag about their intentions. (Back in 1934, everyone agreed that the Feds had to shoehorn their criminal laws into taxation; over time, they decided that the Commerce Clause was broad enough to negate the grant of limited powers from the states to the Feds, so now they just act as though they have police powers and repeat the magic words about "in or affecting interstate commerce", like we're all in a bad Dungeons and Dragons game.)

[Xringshooter]

What I had gotten out of that meeting was that, in PA, if you are a PA resident and built your own long arm from an 80% lower then later decided you didn't want it, you could sell it to another PA resident as is, no s/n legally required, but if you sold it to someone out of state it would have to be marked to meet the regs. Then, if you are a PA resident and built a handgun from an 80% frame, and later decided you wanted to sell it, you would have to mark it with your name, city, state and s/n because it has to go through a FFL (be it a PA sale or an out of state sale).

Although, of course, they said it would really behoove a person making their own firearm to put a name/serial number on it, just in case it gets stolen or lost

[Walleye Hunter]

What I had gotten out of that meeting was that, in PA, if you are a PA resident and built your own long arm from an 80% lower then later decided you didn't want it, you could sell it to another PA resident as is, no s/n legally required, but if you sold it to someone out of state it would have to be marked to meet the regs. Then, if you are a PA resident and built a handgun from an 80% frame, and later decided you wanted to sell it, you would have to mark it with your name, city, state and s/n because it has to go through a FFL (be it a PA sale or an out of state sale).

Although, of course, they said it would really behoove a person making their own firearm to put a name/serial number on it, just in case it gets stolen or lost used in a crime so they can sue you too.

FIFY

OK, and what if you make yourself one then move out of state with it?

[ExFlyinguy]

What I had gotten out of that meeting was that, in PA, if you are a PA resident and built your own long arm from an 80% lower then later decided you didn't want it, you could sell it to another PA resident as is, no s/n legally required, but if you sold it to someone out of state it would have to be marked to meet the regs. Then, if you are a PA resident and built a handgun from an 80% frame, and later decided you wanted to sell it, you would have to mark it with your name, city, state and s/n because it has to go through a FFL (be it a PA sale or an out of state sale).

Although, of course, they said it would really behoove a person making their own firearm to put a name/serial number on it, just in case it gets stolen or lost

Okay, here is what I found. *I am still uncertain if this is still JUST a proposal or if it has become regulation/law

Definition of *Frame or Receiver* and Identification of Firearms
On May 7, 2021, the Attorney General signed ATF proposed rule 2021R-05, Definition of *Frame or Receiver* and Identification of Firearms

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regula...me-or-receiver

Summary of 2021R-05
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regula...ceiver/summary


*As far as I know this STILL only applies to FFL's coming into possession of "Home builds/Ghost guns"

Because privately made firearms do not have the identifying markings required of commercially manufactured firearms, this rule proposes to amend 27 CFR 478.92 to require FFLs to mark, or supervise the marking of, the same serial number on each frame or receiver

https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...on-of-firearms

Someone smarter than me has to say whether this is now law of the land

[akley88]

here is another article on this guy with a supposed picture that shows he was building and selling handguns
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a-...lic/ar-AASA5lN

[esh21167]

here is another article on this guy with a supposed picture that shows he was building and selling handguns
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a-...lic/ar-AASA5lN

The plot thickens. Transported to Dominican Republic.