Waco spin-off thread

[LittleRedToyota]

(note: this thread was spun off of the "man taeks loaded gun to hearing" thread that got off track.)

But Koresh DID in FACT escalate the situation that day by firing FIRST.

dave, do you have any citations or links showing where who fired first at Waco was actually ever established as fact?

thanks.

[soberbyker]

Everything I've read states it's unknown.

from: http://www.culteducation.com/waco.html

Congress held hearings concerning Waco in 1996. Democrats seemed to feel that Republicans hoped to exploit the tragedy for political gain. But the official Republican report concluded the following:


"Who fired the first shot on February 28th cannot decisively be resolved given the limited testimony presented to the Subcommittees. It appears more likely, however, that the Davidians fired first as the ATF agents began to enter the residence."

"No shots were fired from the helicopters at the Branch Davidian residence."

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege

Agents approached the site in cattle trailers pulled by pickup trucks owned by individual ATF agents. It is not known who fired the first shots. It is reported that the first firing occurred at the double front entry doors. ATF agents stated that they heard shots coming from within the compound, while Branch Davidian survivors claimed that the first shots came from the ATF agents outside.

from: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b10.html

It has not been determined who fired first, but gunfire erupted.

There's a ton of stuff on the net about this and nothing I can find has a definitive answer one way or the other.

Bill
.

[Pa. Patriot]

(note: this thread was spun off of the "man taeks loaded gun to hearing" thread that got off track.)



dave, do you have any citations or links showing where who fired first at Waco was actually ever established as fact?

thanks.

I too would LOVE to see them...

I would also LOVE to see all the video tapes the ATF took of the initial raid, that mysteriously wound up "lost". As did many other pieces of key evidence, like the front door.

[LittleRedToyota]

Everything I've read states it's unknown.

me too. which is why i was asking.

[soberbyker]

There's a book called Absolute Power By David Limbaugh that has some interesting views on it but still no conclusive evidence one way or the other.
.

[TaePo]

Well, then, since the government is held to a higher standard and since they are the monopolizer of force or deadly force; we could say that the government has failed to meet a minimal standard of proof to justify their use of deadly force.

A group comes under governmental scrutiny.

Anonymous accusations are made. (Hmm, forced or coerced to comply with what some government agent wants?)

Probable cause is given for all out SWAT-style hit.

Targets do not cooperate.

People turn up dead, mostly the targeted people.

There is a problem with these anonymous accusations. They should have to be exposed so one can see their accusers and the accusations to see the light of day. Maybe this should be a requirement before the government serves warrants or can act on them.

I am starting to have problems with anonymous tips etc. That is why our forefathers made it a part of the B.O.R.

I suppose there may be bad groups out there, but it always seems like, in the end, the government cannot justify what happens.

Even in the recent polygamy case, the original accuser/accusation disappeared ex post facto. Not that I support such groups but I do think that the agents are starting to 'cheat' a little.

Once all those groups are put asunder with these illicit tricks, how long until you and I are snared and put down?

[jahwarrior72]

well, sen. chuck schumer was pretty adamant in that he refused to believe the ATF would fire first.

that's enough proof for me, that they did.

[DaveM55]

(note: this thread was spun off of the "man taeks loaded gun to hearing" thread that got off track.)



dave, do you have any citations or links showing where who fired first at Waco was actually ever established as fact?

thanks.

Sorry, I sincerely apologize. I should not have used the word FACT.

But it is my belief that Koresh fired first. No I can't prove it with any citations, testimony or affidavit's.

Still it is what I believe.

[LittleRedToyota]

But it is my belief that Koresh fired first. No I can't prove it with any citations, testimony or affidavit's.

Still it is what I believe.

just out of curiosity...

who do you think fired first at ruby ridge?

do you think lon horiuchi should have had to stand trial?

[1861]

I was still in Waco at the time , and while I don,t know , it was commonly accepted there that the atf fired 1st .