NFA Gun Trust...Need a Lawyer...?

[emsjeep]

Apparently out of state residents (or in state residents for that matter) can own Class 3 weapons etc. through LLC's Inc.'s and Trusts...I'm not sure what the filing requirements for Inc.'s are in PA, but if it was as expensive and as much of a pain as my NY Inc. I would not like to have another. Is there anyone who owns such items through a trust? Anyone know a lawyer that will do this?

[Gun Trust Lawyer, David G]

We have several lawyers in PA and I would be happy to get you in touch with one. The lawyer used often depends on your individual needs.


David Goldman
Tel (904) 685-1200 Fax (904) 212-0678
http://www.GunTrustLawyer.com/

Apparently out of state residents (or in state residents for that matter) can own Class 3 weapons etc. through LLC's Inc.'s and Trusts...I'm not sure what the filing requirements for Inc.'s are in PA, but if it was as expensive and as much of a pain as my NY Inc. I would not like to have another. Is there anyone who owns such items through a trust? Anyone know a lawyer that will do this?

[ungawa]

There's nothing to an LLC in PA so you might reconsider that option as well. I had a lawyer do mine. It was $125 for the LLC and $600 for the lawyer when I did it. Lawyer fee may or may not have been worth the cost (as time savings) for forming the LLC but it was worth the cost to have all my questions answered in one place at one time. Plus he gave me an NFA operating agreement that may be of value. If you decide on the LLC route you can PM me or the board owner for contact info for lawyers.

[GunLawyer001]

I would never use a trust as an NFA holding entity, for reasons that have been discussed many times. Particularly across State lines. NFA trusts are going to implode someday, leaving a lot of people in the lurch when their toys are confiscated. That won't happen to corps or the quasi-corps that LLC's are.

A New York resident can't possess MG's or some other NFA items in New York, but he can certainly own them through a business entity in another State.

If he wants to keep them in PA, he needs to create a PA corp or LLC, then he has to maintain a street address, either through actual real estate (no PO boxes), or else he can contract with a registered office provider. Here's a link:
http://www.dos.state.pa.us/corps/cwp...=1093&q=431308

He can store the NFA items in a safe deposit box in PA, or perhaps some other suitable location to which only he has access. Most people use the bank box, it's almost bulletproof against ATF challenges. If you have someplace in PA where you can store your own gun safe, that could work, too.

There may be some awkward moments when you take delivery on behalf of the LLC or corp, because the FFL will need to look at your out-of-state ID. Make sure you cover that with the dealer ahead of time.

[emsjeep]

We have several lawyers in PA and I would be happy to get you in touch with one. The lawyer used often depends on your individual needs.


David Goldman
Tel (904) 685-1200 Fax (904) 212-0678
http://www.GunTrustLawyer.com/

Wow, you guys are hiding everywhere!

Can regular firearms be purchased by the legal entity as well? The street address issue may not be worth the trouble I think.

[jms]

An LLC is extremely easy and has the added benefit that it is a loose association so there are no requirements to hold meetings and keep minutes. Of course it is a good idea to keep minutes if you have meetings. the PA department of state has all the paperwork.

Of course, if you have any questions or concerns see a competent attorney.

[GunLawyer001]

An LLC is extremely easy and has the added benefit that it is a loose association so there are no requirements to hold meetings and keep minutes. Of course it is a good idea to keep minutes if you have meetings. the PA department of state has all the paperwork.

Of course, if you have any questions or concerns see a competent attorney.

Not to pick on you, but this is why you should always balance the cost of an attorney against the risks involved. Before creating a legal person to serve as the holding company for however many thousands of dollars worth of NFA items, it would really pay you to know what you're doing.

Creating an LLC, like doing your own gunsmithing, is easy. But, like gunsmithing, doing it correctly is not easy.

An LLC is not a "loose association", it's a legal person with defined membership, and each member has to jump through hoops to become a member, or to cease being a member. There are no corporate formalities required because it's not a corporation, but it's also nothing like your weekly poker game.

While it's true that the Pa Dept of State has all of the forms necessary to register a new LLC, that's not all of the paperwork that you'll need to actually do anything with an LLC.

The most important thing to remember is that YOU don't own that machinegun or SBR, the LLC owns it, so you'd better have a legally sufficient paper trail that justifies your personal possession of something that is not registered to you in the NFTR.

The stakes are high, because you can have all of the LLC's assets confiscated if you screw up, and you can be criminally prosecuted under PA and Federal law if you've missed a step. So far as the law is concerned, simple ownership of an LLC or corp is not authorization to possess NFA items registered to that company. If you own shares of IBM, can you as an owner walk off with a mainframe from the local office?

Please don't minimize the risks here. Sure, there are people who created their own corp, LLC or trust who slipped them past the ATF examiner and have had no problems yet. There are also people who refuse to file tax returns who haven't been arrested yet. Neither situation is proof that the strategy is without risks. The LLC is your sole legal defense to a charge of felonious unlawful possession of NFA items; much like your car's airbags or seat belts, that's not the place to skimp. It's like using the cheapest no-name reloads in your collectible Thompson.

[knight0334]

As Gunlawyer mentioned, a lawyer isn't needed - but it's probably wiser to use the services of one to set up a corp or LLC. Most wont charge much for the service, its not like the costs of a felony defense.. I think my uncles paid about $60-100 lawyer fee for their corp's, which were done right the first time. The lawyer also prep'd my uncles on tax issues as well for the same fee.

My opinion is just divvy out for the lawyer and do it right.

[jms]

You are absolutely right, I've never used an LLC to hold any property that would be considered controlled. I don't know the proper steps and procedures.

As far as creating an LLC, it is very easy. Having the LLC own any firearms and you having possession of them I have absolutely no idea how to do it, nor have I investigated how to go about it. I use a couple LLC's to operate some other businesses which are not considered controlled.

I do have to agree with you, the extra couple hundred to protect you and your property is worth it. But just make sure you use a good lawyer, I used a lawyer with a good reputation once and he didn't do half of the things he was supposed to and it nearly cost me a great deal of money.

[Fudmottin]

What does it take to maintain an LLC in PA? And how does an LLC grant the right of a member to possess NFA Title II firearms?

I may have an actual reason to form an LLC. I am a software engineer (oxymoron, I know). But I *do* have a program available for commercial sale on Apple's iTunes App Store for iPhone / iPod touch. I may not have sold enough copies to get a bank transfer made to my account yet, but I do have that actual commercial business, such as it is.

Just to inject a little humor into this otherwise serious topic, perhaps I might require the possession of NFA Title II firearms for customer relations.

Yes, I've read John Ross' book Unintended Consequences.

Back to being serious again though. Maybe it would be worthwhile for me to have an LLC for the purpose of software sales, and consulting. As a side effect, maybe the LLC could also own Title II firearms and grant me the right to posses them. I do, after all, donate my own equipment to software development. You can be sure that any money I make through software sales will have the AT&T service charges deducted. Anything to reduce tax liability