Police officer discretion

**JohnSmith33** · December 26th, 2021, 10:54 AM

I’ve got a question in regards to the title, and even for current/former LEOs that may drop in- I encourage both legal opinions and personal opinions.

Suppose someone is pulled over and found to be in possession of a firearm when they’re prohibited- either because they don’t have a LTCF in PA (or god forbid, Jersey…) or because they’re prohibited but lack a criminal record-and suppose they tell you they’re carrying- “hey, FYI I have……”

Suppose they refuse to surrender their firearm?

-can a police officer refuse to take the assumed route? IE can he let them go on their way and ignore the firearm?
- what would the consequences be for said officer if he did?
- how would YOU (for the LEOs and former…) feel about either decision (to arrest or not?)

I ask because I’ve followed the case of David ware. The dash video is public and shows the murder of two police officers. He’s a convicted felon at the time and I’m convinced refuses to surrender to the towing of his vehicle because of said record and handgun in his car that would be found on inventory… so he resists and here he is. If he’s not facing possession charges I think those two officers would be alive…. Maybe🤷*♂️

So consider the case if you’re familiar with it, and change any of the details that would be needed to sway your opinions to and from- ie “ if… then i would/could”

Could any details exist that would/could have you sway your decision from “let him go” to “no way”

**bogey1** · December 26th, 2021, 11:09 AM

Most likely you will be shot if you dont turn your firearm over.

**esh21167** · December 26th, 2021, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by bogey1

Most likely you will be shot if you dont turn your firearm over.

Yep.

We can scream all we want about 2A infringement and bad cops, so put that aside for today.

If you are prohibited and found to have a firearm in your vehicle upon a traffic stop, surrendering yourself and the firearm is your best option if you want to live.

I'd like to know the order at a stop. Run plate and check of registered owner, then to vehicle to check driver (?). Anything that comes up in that first step leads to heightened alert by the police.

**SIGFAN86** · December 26th, 2021, 11:31 AM

Take a look at the case of shileen allen. She was legal to carry in pa, wasnt a prohibited person, but made the mistake of carrying across state lines, and was arrested for it. If there was any chance of discretion, that would have been the time to give it and tell her to go back to pa and don't bring a firearm into nj.

**Walleye Hunter** · December 26th, 2021, 11:40 AM

I don't see any wiggle room on this one. In the case of an honest mistake, it should be addressed in front of the judge.

**esh21167** · December 26th, 2021, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Walleye Hunter

I don't see any wiggle room on this one. In the case of an honest mistake, it should be addressed in front of the judge.

Agree. If you're not prohibited, you would most likely have an LTCF. You know if you're prohibited. The scenario in the OP implies the person knew they were.

Almost like, 'I didn't know the speed limit was 15MPH in this school zone.'

As far as the LE reaction. Would you want to be on the end of letting a prohibited person with a gun in a car go? Or a mandatory reporter not reporting suspected child abuse or threats of violence or suicide? That's a recipe for personal, social, and financial ruin. Or worse.

**sbmania** · December 26th, 2021, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by SIGFAN86

Take a look at the case of shileen allen. She was legal to carry in pa, wasnt a prohibited person, but made the mistake of carrying across state lines, and was arrested for it. If there was any chance of discretion, that would have been the time to give it and tell her to go back to pa and don't bring a firearm into nj.

I know of one NJ State Trooper who did exactly that. Came across a woman with a PA LTCF in NJ where no crime was being committed and let her go with a warning to take the gun back to PA and leave it there. I wouldn't count on meeting another Trooper like him if you're in NJ. I suspect they are as rare as a real woman above 8 on the hot matrix and below 4 on the crazy line!!

**SIGFAN86** · December 26th, 2021, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by sbmania

I know of one NJ State Trooper who did exactly that. Came across a woman with a PA LTCF in NJ where no crime was being committed and let her go with a warning to take the gun back to PA and leave it there. I wouldn't count on meeting another Trooper like him if you're in NJ. I suspect they are as rare as a real woman above 8 on the hot matrix and below 4 on the crazy line!!

That woman won the rarest lottery in the north east.
Good on that nj trooper. Not something I'd expect from nj

**free** · December 26th, 2021, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by SIGFAN86

Take a look at the case of shileen allen. She was legal to carry in pa, wasnt a prohibited person, but made the mistake of carrying across state lines, and was arrested for it. If there was any chance of discretion, that would have been the time to give it and tell her to go back to pa and don't bring a firearm into nj.

If she had kept her gun concealed and her mouth shut, she would likely have avoided further issues.

**-JD-** · December 29th, 2021, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by free

If she had kept her gun concealed and her mouth shut, she would likely have avoided further issues.

Maybe true. Or dead.

Hard to know how it might actually have turned out. I don't know if NJ officers get/got PA LTCF info when they run tags/DLs. Then there is the question - is the officer fearful, biased (in several possible dimensions), and/or interested in fishing for something bigger than a traffic stop and will start asking questions? Do you then fail to answer or lie?

Regardless, immediate announcement of possession is law in some states, preached by most LE agencies and, I strongly suppose then and now, by the Philly GPU.

So it was the result of a likely "intricacies of the gun-world ignorant", but otherwise well-intentioned series of choices. BTW, have you heard how many folks seem to show up at TSA checkpoints with guns with them ...

FWIW, I met Shaneen on several occasions in that era and interacted on more. She is a smart lady who was just trying to protect herself and her family, but certainly not "people of the gun" then.

We "enthusiasts" seem to forget that most law-abiding gun owners don't make it a thing and aren't really aware that the legal system is an especially hazardous minefield for well-intention gun owners.
How may threads are there on here about the ignorance or willful disregard of the actors in the legal system (LEOs/(A)DAs/Judges/Attorneys) WRT the application of gun laws?
How may threads by generally knowledgeable folks (at least aware enough to know that they need to ask) on how to thread some particular needle without falling afoul of some arcane combination of restrictions? It sucks. It is stupid. And the "system" is quite content with having it that way.