Police officer discretion

[KCJones]

The oath that "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic" is translated in real life by 95% of those who take it as "I will support and defend all the laws and commands that have not been declared UNCONSTITUTIONAL by a supreme court, either state or federal."

Those 95% operate on the basis of giving to others (the supreme courts) the task of determining what IS and IS NOT CONSTITUTIONAL. They apply the laws on the books, without evaluating or caring to make a determination of Constitutionality and certainly irrelevant of the opinion of Constitutionality as expressed by the supposed-perpetrator of the crime at hand.

THE PEOPLE should be working to breakdown the political corruption that puts UN-CONSTITUTIONAL laws on the books, from which those enforcers operate.

You cannot expect these enforcers to make Constitutional decisions during confrontations with those the law defines as criminals. You might want to see that from them, but it is an unreasonable expectation, considering their perception of their duties. I suspect such a policy or working perspective would be much more chaotic and destructive of society than the current approach, even when that approach is prone to errors.

You SHOULD expect YOUR representative at all levels of government to value the Constitution above all else, in considering what laws to support or oppose.

It's been shown time and time again, that the enforcers, despite their taking the aforementioned oath, are, like the military's low level participants, to follow orders no matter what their opinion of those orders might be.

Many, many, many woes that we confront are a direct result of the failure of THE PEOPLE to properly DEMAND & CONDUCT a proper Republic, through a REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY. Reducing the number of laws, that apply to every nitty gritty aspect of life, would keep the government away from treating everyone as though they are the most despicable low-lifes. But that would also require a judiciary that properly punishes the remaining major crimes left on the books.

There are some of the other 5% who have taken the oath, who are 'A Law Unto Themselves', with either extreme application of their own justice, selective deferential treatment of a violator or just doing a friend a favor.

Almost all of them (the 95% plus the 5%) perceive they are upholding their oath of office, as appropriate to the existing circumstances.

Understanding the above should help one determine their approach to both law enforcer and law maker.

Ignore these facts at your own peril. What you choose to do personally is probably best kept to yourself.
(Anything you say, can & WILL, be used against you in a court of law!)

...

Unfortunately, a populace comprised of 95% cattle is probably sufficiently immovable as to make the 5% irrelevant. Our system was designed to prevent tyranny of the majority... but cannot overcome near-total complaisance by the VAST majority.

[free]

As a former Airman, you realize your credibility (marksmanship) is suspect, right?

Sure. Being underestimated makes things easier.

[-JD-]

I would not call my self a gun "enthusiast". I have a few. I don't collect. They are tools. I made sure I know how to use them. I tried to learn the circumstances under which I can and should use them. I don't think it is a particularly high bar.

You seem to hang out an awful lot on a gun board. Meets my definition of "enthusiast" even if you only pick up stuff by osmosis.

I don't disagree with "be responsible for learning." However expecting a "license to carry firearms" to be similar in applicability to other licensees like a drivers license, pilots license, or boating license does not strike me as being fundamentally irrational for the general public. "We" bemoan, correctly, any sort of mandatory education for purchasing/possession/carry as 2A is right. Unfortunately, the 2A right is circumscribed in ways that no other would ever be allowed to be, and in a fever-dream of radical federalism. Buy a gun or get your LTCF and you are lucky to even get the cursory handouts that are mandated. Realistically, that means many folks are likely quite ignorant of of all the details that turn normal activity with no malice, intent of criminality, or real danger to anyone into potentially life-destroying situations. Collide that with a culture that imprints a nominal set of standards WRT guns that doesn't really mesh with the actual legal map in many ways and you have people that think that they know what they need to know, but don't, or don't when they move to another jurisdiction. S**tty situation no matter how you slice it.

[free]

You seem to hang out an awful lot on a gun board. Meets my definition of "enthusiast" even if you only pick up stuff by osmosis.

That's fair.

But it is also fair that if The Lounge wasn't here, I probably would be a rare sight here (:

I don't disagree with "be responsible for learning." However expecting a "license to carry firearms" to be similar in applicability to other licensees like a drivers license, pilots license, or boating license does not strike me as being fundamentally irrational for the general public.

I think it is not only completely rational, it should be the law.

But I also think it is completely rational for someone to find out for sure, rather than just acting on that assumption...since people generally know "guns are special" in this society....and I say that as someone who moved here from a "no permit required" state.

[KCJones]

That's fair.

But it is also fair that if The Lounge wasn't here, I probably would be a rare sight here (:

It is, after all, the PA Firearms Owners forum. Didn't know 'enthusiast' was a requirement!

I'm somewhere in the middle myself. I shoot regularly, but not nearly as often as many here. I own a few guns but not nearly as much as many here. I shoot well and do some drills, but not nearly as often / seriously as many here. I'd say guns/shooting is a bit down my list of enthusiasms with motorcycles, brewing, cooking and politics well ahead in terms of my time/attention spent.

I'm here because a shared interest (can we go with "interest"?) in guns yields a like-minded community on many bases as much as I am for the 'guns' part.

Honestly, I find POOFA one of the better sources of news than many ostensible 'news' places. I often hear about events & situations here first, plus info I'd never see anywhere else.

[JenniferG]

You are totally wrong Jen. There may be some officers who have zero tolerance for DUI and other who are hypocrites, but just because your friend's father got arrested doesn't mean everyone is. Attitude and circumstances can make a big difference.

Any Police Officer today that doesn't arrest someone under the influence puts their own job and potentially their future at extreme risk. If the officer doesn't arrest the drunk driver and he later kills someone their life will be a life of woes and regrets. Back in the day Jack was referring to that cops drove you home if they caught you drunk driving has never existed since I began driving in 1973. My friend's Father spent the night in jail and had to pay for the tow but that's where it ended after he got his car and that was in I'd say '68 or '69.

Like I already mentioned the MADD laws that went into effect in '80 or '81 took away any discretion the officer may have had beforehand. Maybe in Philly they looked the other way because other crimes were once more important and prevalent but out here in the hinterlands DUI arrests were made into an industry and there's no letting anyone go. Arrests and convictions feed the DUI industry. Classes, fines, lawyers, Probation officers, county jail etc... all are beneficiaries of the even more restrictive MADD laws that are in effect now. What's the BAC now? .08? .05? I don't drink but many of my friends do.

One night on the way home from work I swerved to miss a giant pothole on RTE 30 in West Whiteland Twp just before they opened the 30 Bypass. A West Whitey pulled me over and said I was under the influence because I swerved back there. He had me do the walk the line, say the alphabet and blow into the machine they had. Much to his chagrin none of his tactics to fuel the industry worked. I was stone cold sober and swerved to miss a crater in the road but I was polite, I did what he asked and I had 30 or 40 people to testify where I had just come from and he was madd as hell. I'm sure the Philly Police have other priorities but feeding the system is what they play out here.

[free]

It is, after all, the PA Firearms Owners forum. Didn't know 'enthusiast' was a requirement!

I own lots of stuff I'm not particularly enthused about.

[KCJones]

Any Police Officer today that doesn't arrest someone under the influence puts their own job and potentially their future at extreme risk. If the officer doesn't arrest the drunk driver and he later kills someone their life will be a life of woes and regrets. Back in the day Jack was referring to that cops drove you home if they caught you drunk driving has never existed since I began driving in 1973. My friend's Father spent the night in jail and had to pay for the tow but that's where it ended after he got his car and that was in I'd say '68 or '69.

Like I already mentioned the MADD laws that went into effect in '80 or '81 took away any discretion the officer may have had beforehand. Maybe in Philly they looked the other way because other crimes were once more important and prevalent but out here in the hinterlands DUI arrests were made into an industry and there's no letting anyone go. Arrests and convictions feed the DUI industry. Classes, fines, lawyers, Probation officers, county jail etc... all are beneficiaries of the even more restrictive MADD laws that are in effect now. What's the BAC now? .08? .05? I don't drink but many of my friends do.

One night on the way home from work I swerved to miss a giant pothole on RTE 30 in West Whiteland Twp just before they opened the 30 Bypass. A West Whitey pulled me over and said I was under the influence because I swerved back there. He had me do the walk the line, say the alphabet and blow into the machine they had. Much to his chagrin none of his tactics to fuel the industry worked. I was stone cold sober and swerved to miss a crater in the road but I was polite, I did what he asked and I had 30 or 40 people to testify where I had just come from and he was madd as hell. I'm sure the Philly Police have other priorities but feeding the system is what they play out here.

Many years back, I took the trouble to 'memorize' the alphabet backwards. Can still do it. FWIW here's a good trick - you can do it backward to the same tune/cadence as the traditional "ABC" song, which helps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txLBRHvEhOg

I realize it's supposed to be a 'trick' question, but the 2 times I've been put through the 'roadside' test I rattled it off without hesitation. Was told "good night, be on your way" both times.

[JAKIII]

I can give you names from the 70s, Guthriesville area (small town).

Back in the day Jack was referring to that cops drove you home if they caught you drunk driving has never existed since I began driving in 1973.

Like I said, quit talking shit like you*re some type of authority.

I was referring to bumfuck towns from back in the day.

[free]

Many years back, I took the trouble to 'memorize' the alphabet backwards. Can still do it. FWIW here's a good trick - you can do it backward to the same tune/cadence as the traditional "ABC" song, which helps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txLBRHvEhOg

I realize it's supposed to be a 'trick' question, but the 2 times I've been put through the 'roadside' test I rattled it off without hesitation. Was told "good night, be on your way" both times.

I'd just tell the cop, "sorry. I didn't go to some shitty public school system like the one you probably graduated from. I learned it in the correct order. I can recite that for you if you like."