Firearm/NFA Trusts?

[brungesj]

Hello everyone,

Does anyone know anything about the legality of Firearm/NFA item trusts? Everything I'm reading about them suggests that they're not the same as living trusts.

[esh21167]

Certainly legal. About the only benefit of a trust is the ability to allow others (trustees) to possess/use NFA items, as opposed to individual ownership where you would need to be present if others use the NFA item.

[Xringshooter]

Certainly legal. About the only benefit of a trust is the ability to allow others (trustees) to possess/use NFA items, as opposed to individual ownership where you would need to be present if others use the NFA item.

The above is correct. That said, it use to be that the trust was an easier way to get a Form 4 back quicker and easier (no fingerprints or photos required). However, that changed a few years ago and now EVERYONE on the trust must submit photos, fingerprints and fill out an ATF Responsible Persons forms. Much more onerous now.

[knight0334]

The above is correct. That said, it use to be that the trust was an easier way to get a Form 4 back quicker and easier (no fingerprints or photos required). However, that changed a few years ago and now EVERYONE on the trust must submit photos, fingerprints and fill out an ATF Responsible Persons forms. Much more onerous now.

Yep, all but one benefit of the trust route is gone. Unless you're "sharing" amongst "co-owners"(trustees) of NFA devices, the trust is not worth it.

[SigForLife]

Yep, all but one benefit of the trust route is gone. Unless you're "sharing" amongst "co-owners"(trustees) of NFA devices, the trust is not worth it.

Trustees shouldn't be "co-owners" and a trust (or other fictitious entity) can prevent issues of constructive possession. It's also an estate planning device that doesn't get filed with the court when you die and remains a private document, unlike a will. There are a bunch of other benefits to a trust (or other fictitious entity).

[GunLawyer001]

The government already knows about your private NFA firearms, and I've never heard of any heir who was burglarized because someone reviewed estate filings. Most heirs don't want NFA firearms, they want the cash, so all you do with that "estate planning" is to make them get a lawyer who understands estates, guns, and trusts.

Maybe you avoid some inheritance taxes at the state level, up to 15% for the kids, 0% for the spouse, but there may have been gift taxes payable to the extent that you gave someone something of value; or if they were the beneficiary, maybe someone should have explained the fiduciary duties inherent in being a trustee of property for the benefit of another, and then discuss how "taking the trust property out to the range and wearing out the barrel" fits in with those fiduciary duties.

As for constructive possession, the NFA has been in effect for most of the last century (since 1934), and I haven't heard of any cases where a non-prohibited spouse or child living in the family home was prosecuted because Daddy had his registered NFA firearms outside the safe while he was at work. That doesn't happen. And if the wife or kid is prohibited, then tacking their names onto an entity doesn't help one tiny bit.

All the entities, the NFA corporations and LLC's and trusts, were useful to get around the CLEO signature requirement, which was a mandate for us to obtain, but there was no mandate (almost anywhere) for the CLEO to sign, leaving the law-abiding citizens hanging in the gap. That CLEO signature requirement went away, and I tell EVERYONE who calls me about an NFA trust or LLC, that they don't need one unless they know why they need one. It's now a solution without a problem to solve Really "needing" one is rare, that requires a couple, or siblings, or dad and son, to share the interest that we all share, but few of us share with our families. I'd bet that 99% of the entity holders never have their family or friends check out the toys and go to the range without them.

I made money creating entities, but I stopped when it stopped being a benefit to the clients. I'm arguing that you don't need to pay me for this, unless you know why you need one in your special circumstances.

I've seen lawyers opine that they can get around the photos and prints for all the responsible persons, by drafting a document removing one or more of them, then sending in the Form 4 without mentioning them, and then adding them back to the entity. Any lawyer who tells you that, run away. No judge in America would listen to that without getting pissed off.

[brungesj]

Thanks for the input everyone.

I was actually considering it for regular firearms as a means of protecting "my nephew's" (I purchased them and own them, he's still a minor so cannot own them himself) Hunting rifles and shotgun from things like law-suits or marriage/divorce until he is old enough to take ownership of them himself.

[nickds]

Thank you for this perspective.
My brother in law and I were just discussing his first foray into the NFA world and this covered much if what we were discussing.