Needing Training to get Permit

[jdlv4_0]

Your not comparing your self to some one/thing that has to have a hand up his butt to speak up are you?

Wait, that sounds more like a politician than a muppet, are you sure you got that right Frenchy?

[LittleRedToyota]

The whole "the state has no lawful authority" argument (even though I'm an unabashed libertarian) has always made me snicker -- simply because it ignores reality. Does the state have the enumerated authority to regulate firearms under the Constitution? No. Does it do it anyway? You bet your ass it does.

yeah, but the government illegitimizes itself every time it does that.

"reality" is that the government is acting illegally. of course, "reality" is also that the government will continue to act illegally, so for the sake of self-preservation and just plain getting along in life, it is probably in one's best interest to accept that and just live with it.

but still...in actual, honest-to-goodness "reality", we are all living a sham. and we should complain about it.

as tony pointed out, the founding fathers did not anticipate the society we live in today. but they did anticipate that they could not anticipate the future...that's why they created the process of amending the constitution.

if the people want the government to do something they are not allowed to do according the constitution (like require permits for carrying), the government should amend the constitution instead of just ignoring it.

discussions of what the government should or should not do should begin with the question: "is the government constitutionally allowed to do that?"

if the answer is no, the conversation should not even progress to "is it or is it not a good idea for the government to do it?" (well it can progress there on a philospophical level, of course, but not on an actionable level.)

something could be the best idea ever, but, if the governemnt is restrained from doing it by the constitution, it doesn't matter...at least until the constitution is amended.

the whole attitude of "we should just let the government ignore the constitution when it is inconvenient" is very, very dangerous. the government does things today that would have been unthinkable 20 years ago...so, what do you think they are going to do 20 years from now? think about it...it's really scary.

at any rate, back to the original question...on a practical level i would like to have a training requirement simply because we could get reciprocity with more states. and, i would like to have people who carry guns know how to use them.

however, to me, not letting the government abuse its power is much more important than getting reciprocity or preventing idiots from carrying guns without knowing what they are doing. therefore, i vote not only to not have a training requirement, but to get rid of the need for a permit altogether.

it's not trite...it's looking at history and what happens when governments ignore the restraints placed on them....it is also owning up to reality--not on a compromised practical level, but on a real reality level. and reality is that just plain and simply that the government does not have the right to question the right to keep and bear arms...even though they do actually question that right.

a somewhat relevant quote from George Bernard Shaw is:

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

likewise...the reasonable man accepts the government's abuse of power...the unreasonable man persists in trying to make the government abide by the constraints placed on it by the constitution...therefore, our freedom depends on the unreasonable man.

(edited: to fix a couple typos...usually i don't care about them, but there were some bad ones...i prolly didn't catch them all, though.)

[soberbyker]

Personally I am for less government involvement in my life not more. That said, allow me to propose something that has worked for the motorcycle world here in PA. The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania offers free, yes free, to all residents of the Commonwealth the opportunity to take one of two motorcycle training courses, a Basic RiderCourse and The Experienced RiderCourse. These courses are not mandatory to obtain a motorcycle license. These courses are tough to get into because a lot folks sign up. Why? It's free. Well, not really. Some years back the legislature (at the urging of motorcyclists rights groups) voted to increase the cost of both a motorcycle permit and license (including renewals) by two dollars. The extra two dollars collected pays the cost of running the program. So the total cost of the course is absorbed by all motorcycle endorsed riders, whether you take advantage of the course or not. So as much as some of us have bitched about the cost of a LTCF here in PA, would you be willing to pay more, to fund a free training course? Granted, as a few have said, taking a training course may not make you better shooter (or rider), it may just help you to understand a tad more about it. Practice, practice, practice, it's how you get better at most things, however more information about your quest just may make it a little bit easier


The added on cost of a permit/license is now $5 to fund the program

[MartinBrody]

soberbyker I like your idea, I got my motorcycle license through the basic course and have taken the advanced 2X, it does make you a better rider.

There are a couple differences here, I don't think there is much misuse of LTCF in PA, if there were, I suspect we would hear about it a lot more in the media. Training for LTCF seems like the solution to a non-existent problem. I don't think PA should add training as a requirement simply to have more reciprocity.

[knight0334]

I didn't read the entire thread...

But if training were required, only those who could afford the training would be able to protect themselves. A poor person's life is no less valuable than a person with more money.

Now some of you will say, "well its only $20-50." ...well I know people that dont have $20-50 to spare, I'm one of them at times. I dished out for my bestfriend's license last Friday and gave her a gun about a month ago because she doesn't have two pennies to rub together.

Its already bad enough that we have to have a permit/license to carry concealed, let alone a standardized training requirement. While training is a good thing to have, there are some people who been around guns longer than most trainers, know how to use a varying degree of firearms proficiently, and/or know the laws better than some lawyers(no offense to the couple lawyers here).

I'd rather NOT have reciprocal agreements with other states than to have the required training to meet their standards. ...they are the ones that are wrong in needing it. It'd be like having to go to Sunday School at church to have the right to carry a Bible down the street and speak your mind..

[soberbyker]

I didn't read the entire thread...

But if training were required, only those who could afford the training would be able to protect themselves. A poor person's life is no less valuable than a person with more money.

knight0334, I agree with you wholeheartedly, the training should not be mandatory (in order to get the permit), nor should it cost anything for those who want it and I would never have even thought about it until Mtbkski started this thread. I did sit and think about it though and proposed a possible answer the to question by comparing it to something that was already done in the motorcycle world here in PA. If you're interested you can read my post by clicking here:

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...html#post37999

I believe you can never know too much about something, I am teachable today. I don't know everything. Should training be mandatory? HELL NO. But for those who want some, shouldn't there be a way for all to enjoy it fairly without cost making up their mind for them? Something to think about.

[Frenchy]

Wait, that sounds more like a politician than a muppet, are you sure you got that right Frenchy?

You mean to tell me politicians are not muppets? They are basically the same, ventriliquists at best, they speak the words of those who pay them best.. I believe its called lobbying

Vote Kermitt for President!!!

[TonyF]

soberbyker I like your idea, I got my motorcycle license through the basic course and have taken the advanced 2X, it does make you a better rider.

And firearms training makes you a better marksmen and safer gun handler.

There are a couple differences here, I don't think there is much misuse of LTCF in PA, if there were, I suspect we would hear about it a lot more in the media.
Training for LTCF seems like the solution to a non-existent problem.

My view is that it isn't a matter of LTC misuse, it's a matter of my safety, your safety and those of our loved ones in proximity to those carrying with poor to non-existent gun handling skills.

Recall the story of the dipstick in wal-mart or home depot who cacked off a round in a bathroom stall. We'll never know the truth but I can tell you right now that was a clear case of violation of safety protocol. He pressed the trigger and rule 3 is "keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target".

I've had people at gun clubs insist I look at their handgun and in the process of withdrawing the pistol from its holster, in many instances, finger went directly onto the trigger.

I don't think PA should add training as a requirement simply to have more reciprocity.

I don't either. I'm more concerned about getting shot by someone who doesn't know what the hell they're doing because they've never been taught proper gun handling and the four cardinal safety rules.

I had no idea PA offered motorcycle training and I think that's great. However, the BIG difference in my mind is that the training benefits you personally, as a rider. A lack of training on a harley could get you killed. With respect to concealed carry, I want you trained so you don't kill me.

[knight0334]

knight0334, I agree with you wholeheartedly, the training should not be mandatory (in order to get the permit), nor should it cost anything for those who want it and I would never have even thought about it until Mtbkski started this thread. I did sit and think about it though and proposed a possible answer the to question by comparing it to something that was already done in the motorcycle world here in PA. If you're interested you can read my post by clicking here:

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...html#post37999

I believe you can never know too much about something, I am teachable today. I don't know everything. Should training be mandatory? HELL NO. But for those who want some, shouldn't there be a way for all to enjoy it fairly without cost making up their mind for them? Something to think about.

I agree, you can never know enough. I personally wouldn't mind a couple dollar tack-on to our LTCF for a "Free" or partially funded training course(student only pays $5-10 at the door) - so long as the course was optional just like the motorcycle classes(good idea for riders).

Those who live in the bigger metropolis areas have access to training centers, those of use who live in BFE, PA dont though. Even finding a PA Hunter Safety Course is difficult at times here. So even if such a thing were made to happen, those of us in BFE may be left out while those in the incorperated areas will have the luxury of the training - something would need to be coded into law to have at least 1, maybe 2 classes available per county. In Jefferson County we have about 4000-5000 LTCF's issued, with a population of about 44000. At say $5 addition, that would be $20-$25K that could be used locally to train.. .....would that be enough to pay for a monthly held class at a location in central Jeff. Co?? Or maybe two classes monthly, one in the northern part of the county and one in the southern?

We have a 3-4 public Game Commission ranges around here to practice at, and there is 1 private membership required indoor range within 60 miles(unattended, members have key type 24/7). Most people around here have to rely on people that have been born and raised around guns and practice on their own lands.

The fee we pay in PA for our LTCF's is very very good compared to some other states - $50-$150.. As things stand now, the state regulated price is about $25 and allowing the Sheriff to charge a small additional fee for photos for a custom plastic license. I'll never gripe about the price we pay(except for having to have a permit), even if another $5 was added for an optional course.

[TRB]

Everyone should receive firearms training. It should be part of the curriculum in our public schools. The public school system teaches our children the basics of functioning in society. The goal appears to be to turn children into citizens. We teach kids about government because they will be eligible to vote. We teach them how to add so that they can handle money and do basic math in their jobs. We teach them other skills like home economics, woodshop, English, etc. as a way to experience other areas in the work world so they can make decisions concerning their future. Most of these classes are mandatory for high school graduation. Why not firearms training?

Soberbyker talks about motorcycle safety classes. That is great and most people will agree that motorcycle safety training saves lives. But there is an important difference between a license to ride and an LTCF. The motor vehicle license is a privilege. It can be revoked for any number of offenses. Bearing arms is a right. Fortunately, Pennsylvania respects this right and shall issue permits with no qualifications per se. Here is the important point: If there is a training requirement attached to a right it becomes a privilege. And there’s the rub. Privileges can be denied. If you don’t believe me, ask my kids. Once the right is converted, any requirement, no matter how unreasonable, can be required to obtain the permit.

If firearms training became mandatory in the schools as a requirement for graduation we would have a well trained populace not unlike Switzerland. This proposal educates the majority of the population in less than twenty years without placing a restriction on our rights. But in no way should the school training be held as mandatory regarding issuance of an LTCF.