Needing Training to get Permit

[Whiskey Delta]

" I understand it is my right to carry a firearm. But, why doesn't PA. start incorporating training into getting a permit?"

Your point seems more to be an answer to a question that does not need to be asked.

First of all, why do you think that the average owner even needs training? Furthermore, how many gun carriers DON'T provide themselves with at least rudimentary training? If CCW carriers were gunning people down in the street, you might have a point, but in the absence of compelling rationale, why treat a condition that does not exist?

Just because it makes you feel good?

What exactly do you think the average gun carrier needs? 10 hours a year? 1?

How about this: Exactly what that particular owner feels is necessary?

If you read the statistics, civilians are 2x more likely to hit their target than the trained constabulary.

What more needs to be said?

I am not insulting the cops either. Their gun usage is completely a different animal than civilian usage.


Your train of thought could be carried to just about EVERY walk of life and activity.

How about licensing procreation? I see a lot of idiots having kids and neglecting/abusing/and generally rasining them badly to where they become problems for society?

I would guarantee that training parents would have a greater positive impact on society then all the gun training in the world, but you won't see many signing up for a legislative solution.

Want to know why?

Because MOST legislative solutions are NOT solutions at all. Just more governmental intrusion of dubious merit.

[phillyd2]

Well my feeling is.....Oh, never mind. Tony - you win this one

[TonyF]

Well my feeling is.....Oh, never mind. Tony - you win this one

I was expecting you, Mis-tuh Bond.

Seriously, I don't recall the OP participating in that other thread and I thought he would be interested. I posted it. I'm done. I'm not going to beat that dead horse.

[Whiskey Delta]

[A personal experience. During NRA instructor courses no firearms or ammo is allowed in the room. While we were taking the test at the end of my course, I heard the unmistakable sound of a pistol slide being hand cycled. I turned around to look and one of the training counselors sitting BEHIND the entire student body was loading his Kahr in anticipation of going home within the hour. Coulda knocked me over with a feather.[/QUOTE]


So the lesson we can draw from this is that even trained people are capable of losing focus and making serious errors?

We see fairly frequent (sadly, all too frequent) instances of police killing each other DURING firearms training. At a police academy several years ago, on the one of the first times students were to bring sidearms into class, an instructor went outside in the parking lot to find several of them practicing FASTDRAW.

I will let your imagination run wild about his response to that.

Bottom line for me?

Training does not always equal proficiency, and all the training in the world does not replace a grain of common sense. Unfortunately, common sense is nothing that can be gained, it is intrinsic to the person.

That being said, Training is an absolute necessity for competency, minimizing your risk to others and maximizing your own lethality, which in the worst case scenario is exactly what you want.

Unfortunately, I don't believe it should be mandatory. We put 16 year olds behind the wheel of 2 ton vehicles capable of 100x the kinetic energy of a bullet with little more than a drive in the parking lot of a State police station.

There are plenty of areas of safety that could be accentuated with required training, but you don't see people endorsing them.

So, why then firearms?

Political correctness?

I think that we do well as gunowners to influence our fellows by example, rather than seeking (yes, even theoretically) to enforce upon them an infringement such as required training.

BUT

Since we are talking theory here, how about a FEDERAL permit with required 6 hours of training every year and a begining training of 16 hours that would cross state lines and have pre-emption over every state??

I' D be the first to sign up for that.

Yeah, I am a dreamer...but then, so was Kermit the Frog...

[Mtbkski]

One point I brought up has been lost.

Why wouldn't you want to take a training course if it will suddenly allow you to carry in a couple more states. Would this part of the equation make it worth while to train?

I only wish we would see a Federal Permit. (Sign me up for that one) But how about PA. Permit that is made for those that are willing to go the extra mile, so to speak. Maybe issue a red permit for those that have had 40 hours of training, and are willing to train regularly to maintain this level of Permit. This permit would then be accepted by the states that require training. Would you go for something like this? Or are you just against the training issue?

We may put children in cars. But they do have to take a test to get that drivers license. Give Joe Blow a handgun and a permit. But he doesn't have to take a test. He is just allowed to carry that pistol anywhere he wants. Is training that bad a thing?????

I'm really torn on this issue. And it makes me feel a bit better to see that I'm not the only one.

[TonyF]

I'm really torn on this issue.

We all are.

We may put children in cars. But they do have to take a test to get that drivers license. Give Joe Blow a handgun and a permit. But he doesn't have to take a test. He is just allowed to carry that pistol anywhere he wants. Is training that bad a thing?????

It's the slippery slope of turning a "right" into a "privelege". The corollary is the debate on whether "rights" are absolute.

[Rule10b5]

The state has no lawful authority to mandate training since keeping and bearing a firearm is a right, not a privilege.

The whole "the state has no lawful authority" argument (even though I'm an unabashed libertarian) has always made me snicker -- simply because it ignores reality. Does the state have the enumerated authority to regulate firearms under the Constitution? No. Does it do it anyway? You bet your ass it does.

You carry concealed in Pa.? I'll bet you have a license, even though the Pa. Constitution is clear as hell that the state can't mess with the RKBA. Ever buy a gun from an FFL? I'll bet you had to comply with all the ATF regs.

Reminds me of the old joke about potential and reality:

A kid comes home from school with a writing assignment. He asks his father for help. "Dad, can you tell me the difference between potential and reality?"

His father looks up, thoughtfully, and then says, "I'll demonstrate. Go ask your mother if she would sleep with Robert Redford for a million dollars. Then go ask your sister if she would sleep with Brad Pitt for a million dollars. Then come back and tell me what you've learned."

The kid is puzzled, but decides to ask his mother. "Mom, if someone gave you a million dollars, would you sleep with Robert Redford?"

"Don't tell your father, but yes, I would."

He then goes to his sister's room. "Sis, if someone gave you a million dollars, would you sleep with Brad Pitt?"

She replies, "Omigod! Definitely!"

The kid goes back to his father. "Dad, I think I've figured it out. Potentially, we are sitting on two million bucks, but in reality, we are living with two sluts."

As to people not being able to afford it, sorry 'bout that - life isn't fair, never was and never will be.

That's kind of how I feel about the whole "no lawful authority" thing. It ain't fair, but it's the way it is. Might as well get used to it.

[dgg9]

One point I brought up has been lost.

Why wouldn't you want to take a training course if it will suddenly allow you to carry in a couple more states. Would this part of the equation make it worth while to train?

Anyone who gets a FLA permit for that reason has essentially done so.

Re: required training classes. In general, I would ask anyone proposing some new requirement to accept the burden of proof to show that:

1. There actually is some ongoing problem.
2. The proposed legislation actually does solve the problem, and
3. in such a way that passes cost/benefit, there's no cheaper/better way, etc.

Virtually all gun control fails all three tests. An imaginary "crisis" is invented, and legislation that solves nothing is rammed through. If there actually is a some epidemic of CCW holders accidentally shooting people in public, please document it. Does one-time mandatory training ever solve anything? It should be easy to prove: at a first pass, just look at states with and without training requirements and compare accidents and bad shootings.

[ChamberedRound]

Personally, I want to get training, and my guess is that many others here would like to as well. It's always a good thing to receive training in anything you do; everyone wants to be better at the things they do, be it a job skill, a hobby, or using a weapon.

However, the reality for me is that after spending a significant amount of money on a handgun, plus the holster, plus the ammo, plus the time at the range/club/etc., along with all the other expenses in life, it's hard to justify spending the money on a training class and any associated travel costs. Quite frankly, if I had to spend additional money on training before getting a permit, I may have had to wait a lot longer than I did to buy my first handgun, because that money would have gone to training.

It all goes back to a discussion of our rights. We have a inalienable right to keep and bear arms, protected by the US and PA Constitutions. It does not say, "You have this right if you can AFFORD it"; we all have this right regardless of our financial situations.

I used to believe that training should be required as well for those that wanted to carry a weapon. But the more I think about this issue, the more I realize that mandating training does nothing more than act as a barrier to prevent those who can't afford training from exercising their rights.

[Frenchy]

Yeah, I am a dreamer...but then, so was Kermit the Frog...

Your not comparing your self to some one/thing that has to have a hand up his butt to speak up are you?

The good news is training is available, the bad news is, people don’t want to pay!
Why is this? well one of the main factors is there are not enough people taking these courses to make the price drop. If %90 of the gun owners where to take a course, the price would go down significantly.
So don’t make the course mandatory, but highly suggest one. Make the course available, and have it on a regular basis, you don’t see driving courses take 6 months to enroll in do you? And between one driving school and the next, there is a competition to get students, so they drive the prices down.

When I was in Canada, there where driving courses, if you where 21 when I was a kid, you could pass a test with out the training. I took the training, then I went further in driving by taking a skid management training, and a defensive driving training, in all it made my life much easier.
1: I had 2 accidents, neither could be avoided. First one a wheel fell off the front of my car. I managed to pass in a toll booth at 30mph without brakes (no front wheel) the only damage to the car, was where the wheel ripped off the hood and fender. Lives saved, 3... There was obviously my self, the person in the toll booth, and a child in the back of a station wagon that was just coming out of the toll both. Second accident, a municipal buss cut me off and took off my front bumper after leaving a red light. There was no where to go, I had the choices of on coming traffic or the bus. He dragged me about 100 feet as he left my right to make a left turn in the wrong lane. Needless to say, after 2 front end collisions on my 76 Impala, I decided I needed a new car!
Never had an accident since then, but I have had a few saved calls. Once in Gaspe, on a mountain side, no traffic to be seen, other then the truck I was following, I was driving about 40 pmh., he decided it would be a good idea to test his brakes... Outcome was a jackknife on the hill, he could not control it. From behind, I was able to try a defensive maneuver, my choices are limited, I can pass him to avoid being behind him, or I can try and stop. I tried to stop, my car goes into a skid, I quickly realize after 2 x 360 there might be ice under me! Believe me it happens fast. So my first resource, passing him becomes the only viable solution. I straighten out the car, and manage to pass him only to find that coming the other way is a Quebec Provincial and an other rather large truck!
I managed to pass and get back to my lane in front of the jackknife truck and came to a stop at the bottom of the hill. The jackknife truck hit the QPP car in the back and crushed himself into the other truck coming up. I was able to help the officer and after all was said and done, the officer asked how I ever managed to accomplish passing and getting out of that accident with out a scratch. It was a combination of defensive driving and skid control.
The police officer later admitted when I was face to face with him all he saw was a Pontiac 6000 and a large wall of truck, he was more willing to hit me then the truck. Once I was out of the way, all there was left was a truck and he tried to go for the snow bank, but he had no speed left and the truck hit him. He also admitted that he crapped himself.

2: In all, my Insurance for automobile driving in Canada was around $98 per year when I left there, and that was full collision/theft/fire. I was insured for up to a million in damage. With out the courses, I would have been paying around $500 to $700 per year for a lower class of insurance. When I came to the us, technically, the insurance here is less, but as they don’t have a classification for controlled skid and defensive driving, I now pay over $600 per 6 months!