Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Psychiatric Evaluation for Fitness of Gun Ownership Psychiatrist Recommendation

    My name is Tom. I'm 36 years old. I am a successful network engineer and IT consultant. I have never had so much as a misdemeanor. I haven't even had so much as a parking ticket or speeding ticket in the last decade. I've never been to jail. Yet, because my now deceased mother who died of a drug overdose lied to a couple of doctors in 2007 in order to have me committed on a two doctor 302. As a result, I cannot own a gun. I've hired an attorney, but need a psychiatric evaluation and he refused to give me the name of a psychiatric professional who will perform one. I may need a new lawyer, too. His excuse for not providing a required resource was that he did not want a judge to see the same attorney's clients going to the same psychiatrist and getting a clean bill of health and recommendation for firearm rights to be reinstated.

    I have a very unique case and require assistance in finding a psychiatrist to perform an evaluation for fitness of gun ownership.

    In 2007, I was 21 years old and running my first business. I had a catastrophic loss of income when a business partner betrayed me and my financial troubles also caused the gold digger I was dating to leave me.

    Faced with losing my business (after having dropped out of college to pursue it), the only woman I had ever loved and getting my car repossessed, I was not happy. I come from a dysfunctional family. My father left before I was born and my mother was a cocaine addict who was absent for most of my life and very abusive and controlling when she was a part of it. She eventually died of an overdose in 2015.

    I was 21 years old. I was facing all of these obstacles and they seemed insurmountable. I didn't know what to do. Should I swallow my pride and go back to college? Should I try and get whatever flunky job I could get having no vocation, no education and no connections? Should I try and win back the love of my life or let her go?

    I had all these questions and didn't know who to turn to in order to ask. I tried speaking with my uncles and aunt, but they didn't know what to tell me. I went to my mother one day and asked her what she thought about the situation.

    She said that I should get counseling and that there was a facility in Pittsburgh that offered same day appointments for such a type of therapy. I agreed to talk to someone and she drove me to Western Psych. We went into the checking and I was wondering whether there would really be any availability that day or not. I was asked to wait in a waiting room while my mother stayed and talked to the receptionist or whoever she was. Some time passed. The next thing I know I was approached by someone who asked me whether I was willing to sign in voluntarily to commit myself or whether I would be disputing the matter and facing a 302. I was taken aback. I was shocked. My mother had lied to me and was attempting to have me committed. I was upset but I was looking for answers--not to hurt myself or anyone else. I refused and ended up waiting for what seemed like an eternity before someone came back and told me that they had received a two doctor 302 and that I was going to be committed.

    At that point, I realized that I was going to lose my gun rights for the rest of my life and that the person who I should have been able to trust more than anyone in the world had betrayed me and that trust would be gone forever.

    I spent three days in the hospital before being released as not a threat to myself or anyone else. As a matter of course, there was a 303 hearing where my mother did not show up for shame after the rest of my family talked to her. I was released on the spot and reunited with my girlfriend and the rest of my family. Yet, the damage had been done.

    I consulted an attorney a few years ago about getting my gun rights restored. He told me to get a psychiatric evaluation for fitness of gun ownership, but would not give me any names of any psychiatrists who performed such services.

    I do see a psychiatrist today. I had a lot of stress on the job a few years ago and I have monthly sessions with him. He prescribes me something for anxiety and a low dose anti-depressant. I told him about what happened in 2007 and he was in disbelief. He even offered to write a letter to the judge that I had never presented a threat to myself or anyone else in the couple of years that he has been treating me. But he does not know any psychiatrist who performs fitness to own a gun evaluations and reports.

    So I don't know how to proceed. I've tried randomly calling psychiatrists in the phone book and asking if they perform that type of service with no results. And even if I do find a psychiatrist in that manner, how do I know that they are reliable and that their findings would be taken seriously by a judge.

    If anyone knows of a psychiatrist who is willing to perform a psychiatric evaluation for fitness of gun ownership and / or has a recommendation for an attorney in the Pittsburgh area who deals with such matters and is successful in having people's gun rights restored, I would be immensely grateful for a referral.

    Tom

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Psychiatric Evaluation for Fitness of Gun Ownership Psychiatrist Recommendation

    Should not be too much of a problem, Are you an N R A member ? If so resource their abilitys to recommend a Phychiatrist Thats Pro 2A , Bar Assoc. is another that comes to mind Pro 2A also ! Good Luck !

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Psychiatric Evaluation for Fitness of Gun Ownership Psychiatrist Recommendation

    You had a 2 doc 302 against you while you were napping in the waiting room?

    No one ever spoke to you?

    Something is off with that part.

    Did you take legal action against the doctors?

    Your lawyer wouldn't give you a shrink's name because he didn't want a judge to see the guy he uses? Something is off there too. A lawyer's duty is.to you, not his other future clients. His duty is to you and you alone. He can't harm your representation to help his other clients.

    There just seems to be some details left out or slightly altered here.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Psychiatric Evaluation for Fitness of Gun Ownership Psychiatrist Recommendation

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceballs View Post
    . . .

    Your lawyer wouldn't give you a shrink's name because he didn't want a judge to see the guy he uses? Something is off there too. A lawyer's duty is.to you, not his other future clients. His duty is to you and you alone. He can't harm your representation to help his other clients.

    There just seems to be some details left out or slightly altered here.
    A lawyer's duty is to all clients, just like a doctor's duty is to all his patients, unless there's a defined conflict of interest. Doctors are now routinely skimping on pain meds, because some people abuse them or get addicted. Doctors also are reluctant to prescribe the best antibiotics, because we're running out of antibiotics that still work on the tougher, evolved strains of bugs. So an individual patient's care is limited by the doctor's overall duty to the community, to his future patients, even to the patients of other doctors.

    If the current client benefits from a practice of not using the same psychiatrist for every case, how is it unfair or unethical to continue that practice? There's no ethical obligation for a lawyer to burn his resources for one client. Further, when a client finds the psychiatrist on his own, that tends to look like a more natural relationship than being set up with the lawyer's choice, especially if the judge asks the client, and the answers are either "my friend Jimmy recommended him because he helped Jimmy with his issues" or "my lawyer fixed me up with a doc who would say the right things".

    I don't work in the Pittsburgh area, but it's a simple truth that if judges always see the same psychiatrist testifying to the mental fitness of a petitioner, that testimony becomes suspect, just like other doctors whose practices are mostly limited to testifying for insurance companies or tort lawyers.

    You are more likely to believe that your girlfriend loves you if she hasn't been paid to say the same thing to 1,000 other guys before.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Psychiatric Evaluation for Fitness of Gun Ownership Psychiatrist Recommendation

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceballs View Post
    You had a 2 doc 302 against you while you were napping in the waiting room?

    No one ever spoke to you?

    Something is off with that part.

    Did you take legal action against the doctors?

    Your lawyer wouldn't give you a shrink's name because he didn't want a judge to see the guy he uses? Something is off there too. A lawyer's duty is.to you, not his other future clients. His duty is to you and you alone. He can't harm your representation to help his other clients.

    There just seems to be some details left out or slightly altered here.
    Yeah, what kind of Dr commits someone without ever speaking to them? Not sure how long ago that happened, but I*d look into reallocating their fortunes into my pile of money.
    Find a Conservative Mental Health Professional( more likely to be *gun friendly* than a liberal idiot. Maybe ask a trusted Clergy, that also hunts, shoots, believes in the Constitution!
    Good luck, but I think you are in great position to beat this!

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Psychiatric Evaluation for Fitness of Gun Ownership Psychiatrist Recommendation

    There are a lot of legal reasons for an attorney not to provide his client a name of a particular doctor/psych to use, especially when the PSP will have an opportunity to cross-examine you and potentially ask you, "How did you come to contact or find Dr X?" A response of "My attorney told me to call him/her" could result in a judge discrediting the doctor/psych's testimony, if the Judge believes the evaluation may not have been unbiased. I will say that Psychologist Laguna is really good and worth the drive - http://www.papolicepsych.com
    Joshua Prince, Esq. - Firearms Industry Consulting Group - www.PaFirearmsLawyer.com

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Psychiatric Evaluation for Fitness of Gun Ownership Psychiatrist Recommendation

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post

    If the current client benefits from a practice of not using the same psychiatrist for every case, how is it unfair or unethical to continue that practice? There's no ethical obligation for a lawyer to burn his resources for one client. Further, when a client finds the psychiatrist on his own, that tends to look like a more natural relationship than being set up with the lawyer's choice, especially if the judge asks the client, and the answers are either "my friend Jimmy recommended him because he helped Jimmy with his issues" or "my lawyer fixed me up with a doc who would say the right things".
    I may have read the original statement wrong.

    I understood it as "The lawyer wouldn't let me see ANY shrink he knows, not THAT SPECIFIC shrink."

    I would think though that if the lawyer believe the OP had a valid case he would use whatever the appropriate resource was to prove that case in court. If the lawyer wasn't willing to use his psychiatric resource it tells me the lawyer didn't think the case was a winner.

    That was what I was getting at.

    I mean why have an expert shrink witness if you don't ever use him?

    Also why would the OP need THAT shrink? Go to ANY shrink who is willing to testify. For that matter, go to ANY lawyer. If the first one doesn't want to help you, pick a different one.

    What I'm getting at is that the whole OP seems like it is lacking some key relevant information.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Psychiatric Evaluation for Fitness of Gun Ownership Psychiatrist Recommendation

    So now the detail comes out that you are talking to a liberal civil rights attorney.

    Now I'd believe that lawyer told you to piss off because he didn't want to take your case for political reasons.

    A lawyer who specialized in gun law is a better option.

    There are still details missing from the original 302 commitment that are relevant. I worked in that world too long in my previous life to not know that something is missing there.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Psychiatric Evaluation for Fitness of Gun Ownership Psychiatrist Recommendation

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceballs View Post
    I may have read the original statement wrong.

    I understood it as "The lawyer wouldn't let me see ANY shrink he knows, not THAT SPECIFIC shrink."

    I would think though that if the lawyer believe the OP had a valid case he would use whatever the appropriate resource was to prove that case in court. If the lawyer wasn't willing to use his psychiatric resource it tells me the lawyer didn't think the case was a winner.

    That was what I was getting at.

    I mean why have an expert shrink witness if you don't ever use him?

    Also why would the OP need THAT shrink? Go to ANY shrink who is willing to testify. For that matter, go to ANY lawyer. If the first one doesn't want to help you, pick a different one.

    What I'm getting at is that the whole OP seems like it is lacking some key relevant information.
    Yeah, something seems "off" to me here too. Seems like we're not getting the whole story.
    DGAF

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Psychiatric Evaluation for Fitness of Gun Ownership Psychiatrist Recommendation

    Quote Originally Posted by tomtom View Post
    My name is Tom. I'm 36 years old. I am a successful network engineer and IT consultant. I have never had so much as a misdemeanor. I haven't even had so much as a parking ticket or speeding ticket in the last decade. I've never been to jail. Yet, because my now deceased mother who died of a drug overdose lied to a couple of doctors in 2007 in order to have me committed on a two doctor 302. As a result, I cannot own a gun. I've hired an attorney, but need a psychiatric evaluation and he refused to give me the name of a psychiatric professional who will perform one. I may need a new lawyer, too. His excuse for not providing a required resource was that he did not want a judge to see the same attorney's clients going to the same psychiatrist and getting a clean bill of health and recommendation for firearm rights to be reinstated.

    I have a very unique case and require assistance in finding a psychiatrist to perform an evaluation for fitness of gun ownership.

    In 2007, I was 21 years old and running my first business. I had a catastrophic loss of income when a business partner betrayed me and my financial troubles also caused the gold digger I was dating to leave me.

    Faced with losing my business (after having dropped out of college to pursue it), the only woman I had ever loved and getting my car repossessed, I was not happy. I come from a dysfunctional family. My father left before I was born and my mother was a cocaine addict who was absent for most of my life and very abusive and controlling when she was a part of it. She eventually died of an overdose in 2015.

    I was 21 years old. I was facing all of these obstacles and they seemed insurmountable. I didn't know what to do. Should I swallow my pride and go back to college? Should I try and get whatever flunky job I could get having no vocation, no education and no connections? Should I try and win back the love of my life or let her go?

    I had all these questions and didn't know who to turn to in order to ask. I tried speaking with my uncles and aunt, but they didn't know what to tell me. I went to my mother one day and asked her what she thought about the situation.

    She said that I should get counseling and that there was a facility in Pittsburgh that offered same day appointments for such a type of therapy. I agreed to talk to someone and she drove me to Western Psych. We went into the checking and I was wondering whether there would really be any availability that day or not. I was asked to wait in a waiting room while my mother stayed and talked to the receptionist or whoever she was. Some time passed. The next thing I know I was approached by someone who asked me whether I was willing to sign in voluntarily to commit myself or whether I would be disputing the matter and facing a 302. I was taken aback. I was shocked. My mother had lied to me and was attempting to have me committed. I was upset but I was looking for answers--not to hurt myself or anyone else. I refused and ended up waiting for what seemed like an eternity before someone came back and told me that they had received a two doctor 302 and that I was going to be committed.

    At that point, I realized that I was going to lose my gun rights for the rest of my life and that the person who I should have been able to trust more than anyone in the world had betrayed me and that trust would be gone forever.

    I spent three days in the hospital before being released as not a threat to myself or anyone else. As a matter of course, there was a 303 hearing where my mother did not show up for shame after the rest of my family talked to her. I was released on the spot and reunited with my girlfriend and the rest of my family. Yet, the damage had been done.

    I consulted an attorney a few years ago about getting my gun rights restored. He told me to get a psychiatric evaluation for fitness of gun ownership, but would not give me any names of any psychiatrists who performed such services.

    I do see a psychiatrist today. I had a lot of stress on the job a few years ago and I have monthly sessions with him. He prescribes me something for anxiety and a low dose anti-depressant. I told him about what happened in 2007 and he was in disbelief. He even offered to write a letter to the judge that I had never presented a threat to myself or anyone else in the couple of years that he has been treating me. But he does not know any psychiatrist who performs fitness to own a gun evaluations and reports.

    So I don't know how to proceed. I've tried randomly calling psychiatrists in the phone book and asking if they perform that type of service with no results. And even if I do find a psychiatrist in that manner, how do I know that they are reliable and that their findings would be taken seriously by a judge.

    If anyone knows of a psychiatrist who is willing to perform a psychiatric evaluation for fitness of gun ownership and / or has a recommendation for an attorney in the Pittsburgh area who deals with such matters and is successful in having people's gun rights restored, I would be immensely grateful for a referral.

    Tom
    Tom -

    I'll start off by saying I can't help with any referrals, largely because I'm nowhere near Pittsburgh.

    I'll risk a totally-honest response here, even though you (or others) may not like it.

    I think your instinct to seek new counsel is a good one. If you're not completely comfortable your attorney is "on your side" you need a new attorney, IMHO. My attorney, for example, is also a friend (was a friend first, actually). I don't think he's an angel, or omnipotent. In fact, I'd say there is some faith in knowing your attorney is ALSO someone you've seen puking over the rail of your deck at 3am after the Scotch and Cigars got out of hand. Point is simply I TRUST my attorney completely - including the fact he'd tell me if I needed a different attorney for some particular issue, and would - I'm certain - refer me to the best-possible alternate.

    You seem to have a long history of folks who at best aren't willing to help you, and even seem willing to harm you. Consider why is that? You say your mother tried to have you committed, Your ex was toxic (gold digger, OD'd, etc), your lawyer won't give you a referral to the 'right' psychiatrist, your current pyschiatrist will neither provide the evaluation you need NOR refer you to someone who will, etc. How do you keep picking people who are not in your court? How do you keep ending up with people who shy away from helping you?

    Other than the fact you are seeing a therapist, are on meds, and that therapist will not 'help' you with your gun issue (via eval or referral), you don't say much about the last 15 years. Many folks make decisions they later regret / question at 21 - no judgie there. But what has the last 15 years brought you in terms of employment, education, relationships, etc? Some might say there's a big difference 15 years on between "I did dumb crap at 21, but got my life together since" vs. "I did dumb crap at 21, and am still kind of a basket case".

    I just honestly think there's a REASON you're in the situation you're in, and until/unless you know what that reason is vs. just lamenting it, things will remain tough for you.

    I think 'help will come to those who ask for it at PAFOA'... But your best shot of getting that help is to first show clear self-evaluation and awareness - up to / including knowing why you are where you are and what help you really need.
    DGAF

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