Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Good article on Eastern coyotes and PA deer herd

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandcut View Post
    Where are all the deer? The majority were shot and eaten. Back in the early 2000s, when the deer herd was artificially kept too large due to restrictions on shooting does, when the first attempts to reduce the number of does was in full swing, most of the guys that I know were taking between 2 and 5 does/season for their freezer because it was allowed and not that hard to do. IN THIS AREA. I have no idea what hunting is like down in Palmerton. But, understand, deer are not evenly distributed across the state. Just because you have land nearby that is "huntable" doesn't mean that it is good for hunting a particular species.

    As to where they are now...they're out there. It's just that the herd is at a healthy level when compared to the ability of the habitat to support them. At this current population, one actually has to HUNT to be successful. Gone are the days of walking into the woods 50 yards and having 5 deer walk past within the first 2 hours of daylight. You gotta work for it. Which is also, subsequently, why I haven't tagged a deer in years. In short, I'm not a very good deer hunter. I don't have the patience to sit still long enough and I'm too lazy (and a bit crippled) to hump it back into the boonies where the nice bucks lurk. But, it isn't difficult. It just takes discipline and perserverence and I'm not willing or able to make that commitment. The converse is, the daughter of one of my coworkers has taken a doe, a 10 point, and two 8 points in the last 4 years of hunting. She's even done better than both her dad and her brother. Because she earns it the hard way!

    But, I have a suspicion that you are firmly entrenched and that nothing that I say to you will sway you in the least.

    Either way, good luck to you if you do go hunting. And if everything that you do results in constant failure to take meat, perhaps you need to alter your habits.
    The "Early 2000's" ? Now I know you don't have a clue. The mid 80's is when the bonus-bonus tags started. Within two years it was VERY noticeable on public land. I can walk across the street and there is a State Park (Thousands of acres) which connects to thousands of acres of State Gamelands and another huge State Park. You can walk all day and not see another hunter except maybe in the parking lot. I went out on a fresh snow and walked from dark till dark and cut one deer track. You can see damaged trees from many years back from rubs. Now you can walk all day and count the rubs on one hand. Three weeks ago I was watching three 8 point bucks in my back yard. None under 18". I live on the edge of town. The deer are not in the "Big woods" anymore. The real question should be: If hardly anybody hunts the big wooded areas here for the last 20 years, why haven't the deer bounced back? I have seen one set of coyote tracks on a pipeline in the last couple years. I blame bears for the fawn mortality. They are everywhere, even my back porch.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    Palmerton, Pennsylvania
    (Carbon County)
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    Default Re: Good article on Eastern coyotes and PA deer herd

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandcut View Post
    Where are all the deer? The majority were shot and eaten. Back in the early 2000s, when the deer herd was artificially kept too large due to restrictions on shooting does, when the first attempts to reduce the number of does was in full swing, most of the guys that I know were taking between 2 and 5 does/season for their freezer because it was allowed and not that hard to do. IN THIS AREA. I have no idea what hunting is like down in Palmerton. But, understand, deer are not evenly distributed across the state. Just because you have land nearby that is "huntable" doesn't mean that it is good for hunting a particular species.

    As to where they are now...they're out there. It's just that the herd is at a healthy level when compared to the ability of the habitat to support them. At this current population, one actually has to HUNT to be successful. Gone are the days of walking into the woods 50 yards and having 5 deer walk past within the first 2 hours of daylight. You gotta work for it. Which is also, subsequently, why I haven't tagged a deer in years. In short, I'm not a very good deer hunter. I don't have the patience to sit still long enough and I'm too lazy (and a bit crippled) to hump it back into the boonies where the nice bucks lurk. But, it isn't difficult. It just takes discipline and perserverence and I'm not willing or able to make that commitment. The converse is, the daughter of one of my coworkers has taken a doe, a 10 point, and two 8 points in the last 4 years of hunting. She's even done better than both her dad and her brother. Because she earns it the hard way!

    But, I have a suspicion that you are firmly entrenched and that nothing that I say to you will sway you in the least.

    Either way, good luck to you if you do go hunting. And if everything that you do results in constant failure to take meat, perhaps you need to alter your habits.
    You are right when you say I am firmly entrenched in my thinking. I am old enough to remember the late 1960s when there were a lot of deer. I am old enough to have spoken to my father's generation when they told me of seeing 50 deer in a day back in the 40s and 50s. I witnessed to total destruction of public hunting in the 80s and 90s. I wanted to teach my kids and grand kids to hunt as my Father and my Uncles did for me. That didn't happen. I am the last generation in my family that will hunt. For awhile I could hunt on private land where they did not follow the insane public policy of our game commission experts. Eventually those private patches either got built on, or were bought up by rich guys for their private hunting. If you think I am bitter you don't know the half of it. I feel like the Plains Indians when the White Man shot out the Buffalo Herds.

    Again, other than in housing developments I have never seen a patch of woods that had too many deer or was over browsed. If I could have one wish it would be for the experts to be forced to sit out in the game lands in the hunting season until they saw a deer that was shootable. I am quite sure they would still be there the following year.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Good article on Eastern coyotes and PA deer herd

    Quote Originally Posted by wamba View Post
    You are right when you say I am firmly entrenched in my thinking. I am old enough to remember the late 1960s when there were a lot of deer. I am old enough to have spoken to my father's generation when they told me of seeing 50 deer in a day back in the 40s and 50s. I witnessed to total destruction of public hunting in the 80s and 90s. I wanted to teach my kids and grand kids to hunt as my Father and my Uncles did for me. That didn't happen. I am the last generation in my family that will hunt. For awhile I could hunt on private land where they did not follow the insane public policy of our game commission experts. Eventually those private patches either got built on, or were bought up by rich guys for their private hunting. If you think I am bitter you don't know the half of it. I feel like the Plains Indians when the White Man shot out the Buffalo Herds.

    Again, other than in housing developments I have never seen a patch of woods that had too many deer or was over browsed. If I could have one wish it would be for the experts to be forced to sit out in the game lands in the hunting season until they saw a deer that was shootable. I am quite sure they would still be there the following year.
    I have been hunting for about 30 years. I didn't start until I was a young adult as I didn't have anyone in my family who hunted. Prior to that, I did spend a great deal of time camping in Jefferson County near Cook Forest State Park. A loop on our deer spotting track would yield well in excess of 100 deer. I would be willing to bet that number would be closer to 20 or 30 now.

    I do see less deer hunting now compared to the early nineties when I started. There is NO DOUBT that the quality of bucks has increased dramatically due to age. As far as browse goes, I hunt a combination of private property in Erie County as well as public property in Erie, Crawford, Forest, Jefferson and McKean counties. I am aware of at least two deer EXCLOSURES. Let me tell you, they look like the jungles of Panama compared to the adjacent forest. Browse is real even in the "big" woods.

    I see quite a bit of coyote and coyote sign in Erie County and have witnessed multiple coyote "running" doe in McKean County. Do they account for fawn mortality? Probably to a point. Are they wiping out populations? Probably not. I suspect black bear account for some fawn mortality as well.

    I have a camera out on public property in McKean County. "Big" woods if you will. I have gotten photos of at least 10 different bucks since June. Two or three of them will look handsome on my wall and compare to the farm deer from Erie. Plenty of doe as well. At last check, I had 25 pictures on my camera. 22 were of doe, 1 was a jake turkey, 1 was a coyote and one was me heading into an archery stand. The bucks are out of their bachelor groups and I hope to see them during the rut.

    These are my observations from where I hunt and nothing more.

  4. #14
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    Oct 2012
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    Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania
    (Carbon County)
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    Default Re: Good article on Eastern coyotes and PA deer herd

    How does the quality of a buck come with age? I'm in my 60's and sure don't feel the quality.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Good article on Eastern coyotes and PA deer herd

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunplummer View Post
    How does the quality of a buck come with age? I'm in my 60's and sure don't feel the quality.
    How is your rack? LOL

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    Levittown, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: Good article on Eastern coyotes and PA deer herd

    location, location, location....

    As the houses crept closer to the SFL and a large tract of private property that the 2008 housing crash prevented the developemnt of the owner's core QDMA personal hunting ground, we found more action close to the developed properties. The locals describe it as they see the deer coming into their houses in the morning after the night shift munching acorns in the state forest as the leave for work and the opposite when they come home.

    We rarely hunted around camp when I was young but could count on a rainy day doe across the street every few years. This has changed; my cousin bought the camp around the corner that looks out at houses and the ridge behind him abuts the area across from my cabin and they get a few deer every year.

    Further from him, across the creek on the next ridge is where I shot my largest deer. that line feeds directly between two sets of houses right into the heart of the rich man's land.

    Always see deer crossing the road on this ridge.

    I can drive up the road [and I have in snowy flintlock season] and walk all day and only see a few deer tracks, along with coyote ravage deer carcases.

    The scary part is now I'm seeing more 'yotes around my camp past two years.
    Last edited by wis bang; October 10th, 2021 at 12:18 PM. Reason: added

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    Quakertown, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: Good article on Eastern coyotes and PA deer herd

    We have a lot of yotes around here, although I’ve never actually seen one. They certainly make a racket during a full moon.

    Our neighbor said he saw one as big as Sig by our other neighbor’s horse paddock.

    All of our neighbors used to have dogs, now it’s just us. Hopefully Puppymonster and baby Psycho Shepherd will keep them at a distance.

    Accuse your enemy of what you are doing as you are doing it to create confusion -Karl Marx

  8. #18
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    Jul 2021
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    North east PA, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Good article on Eastern coyotes and PA deer herd

    The large coyote comment reminded me of a story. Probably a dozen years ago my hunting buddy saw what he felt was a wolf While hunting in NY a dozen mile from Canadian border. (He as a younger man had killed more than one wolf living out west).

    He asked the game warden if the state or feds had introduced wolves into NY. The reply was you didn*t see a wolf you saw a large coyote. My fried replied what he saw wasn*t in question, he again asked if they had introduced wolves into NY. Again the reply you saw a large coyote, no answer on the wolf question. After a third go around with the same result, my friend stated that based on the game wardens positive identification the next time we saw the *large coyote* we would shoot it.

    Suddenly the conversation became shoot all the coyotes you want, but it would be illegal to shot a protected wolf. The conversation was folded up by two calls from DEC ( regional and state) repeating that what he saw was a large coyote, there are no wolves in NY, but it would be illegal to shot a wolf.

    The large coyote was not scene again.

    Getting back on topic although I believe coyotes have a larger impact than the original article inferred, I agree that human predation is a much much larger impact. I’m a new resident of PA, but fifty years of experience in NY I only twice saw a horrific winter have a large impact on the deer herd. Mostly low deer numbers were due how state (mis)managed the herd locally.
    Last edited by northny; October 10th, 2021 at 01:54 PM.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Good article on Eastern coyotes and PA deer herd

    A wolf in upstate NY? Sure. I buy that. It isn't that far from their established range.

    https://www.livingwithwolves.org/meet-the-wolf/

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
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    Boondocks, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Good article on Eastern coyotes and PA deer herd

    I have nothing to add to the conversation, I just got a chuckle out of "zoo deer". I guess that's what I have around me.

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