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Thread: Build Questions

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Build Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Norsaq View Post
    * A virgin lower can be made into either a rifle or pistol.
    * A virgin or manufactured gun lower made first into a rifle must remain a rifle.
    I do not believe that this to be true. A receiver, even with a stock installed, is still just a receiver. It does not become a rifle until and unless an upper is pinned onto it. In other words, a newly manufactured lower, even if it is called a "rifle" lower because it comes with a stock, can still have its stock taken off (before you have pinned any upper onto it) and be made into a pistol.

    * A virgin or manufactured gun lower made first into a pistol may later be made into a rifle, and then back into a pistol if desired.
    Similarly, this would also be just a receiver until and unless you pin onto it a pistol upper (i.e., one with a barrel less than 16" long), at which time it becomes a pistol and can be converted back-and-forth as described. If a "rifle upper" is pinned onto it instead, I *think* the whole assembly is now a "firearm" but is otherwise neither a rifle nor a pistol, and the status of the lower remains undetermined.

    I will now yield the stage to Xringshooter or others more in the know regarding NFA to correct me...

    * A gun owner's best legal position in the ATF / Legislative Tyranny-Crazy Matrix is to Form 1 at least one lower as an SBR in some configuration, and then go nuts with braces.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Build Questions

    I think you're making it more complicated by interpreting what he meant into something different.

    I'm not even going to try to get into that one. LOL
    FUCK-joe BI-den... FUCK-joe BI-den... FUCK-joe BI-den...

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Build Questions

    If you get a new lower and have a pistol upper the first thing you do is put them together and take a pic. One clearly showing the serial number (and have the date clock on). After that there is no questions what it is and you will not have the thought police trying to prove you made it into a rifle first.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Build Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delkal View Post
    If you get a new lower and have a pistol upper the first thing you do is put them together and take a pic. One clearly showing the serial number (and have the date clock on). After that there is no questions what it is and you will not have the thought police trying to prove you made it into a rifle first.
    I've done that. Including a pic of the lower still in factory packaging.
    FUCK-joe BI-den... FUCK-joe BI-den... FUCK-joe BI-den...

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Build Questions

    I lost all my pictures in a boating accident
    2021 PMSC/PAFOA Group shoot dates here https://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=366923

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Build Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by JDA58 View Post
    I lost all my pictures in a boating accident
    ME TOO!
    FUCK-joe BI-den... FUCK-joe BI-den... FUCK-joe BI-den...

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Build Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoder View Post
    I always read the "As long as it was never a rifle" deal and think that is beyond stupid. If I put whatever upper on whatever lower and shoot it who's going to know? It's not like the lower keeps a record for itself. If I sell it then it's official. If it's recorded somewhere, it's official. Otherwise this is not possible to enforce.
    Don't you think the OP should be made aware of the laws, even though, they are unreasonable?

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Build Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by McSull View Post
    Don't you think the OP should be made aware of the laws, even though, they are unreasonable?
    Unreasonable laws are to keep manufacturers from just building rifles and not paying the proper tax on later building pistols.
    www.Steelvalleycasting.com is your new home for coated bullets and custom ammo.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Build Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Emptymag View Post
    I think you're making it more complicated by interpreting what he meant into something different.

    I'm not even going to try to get into that one. LOL
    I knew that the OP's post would dissolve into the rifle/pistol conversation even though he did not ask that question. But it did. So here goes:

    If an AR is bought and transferred as a complete RIFLE, it is a rifle - but it can be changed into a short barreled rifle (BATFE Form 1) and you can put any kind of buttstock or brace on it that you want but it is still a rifle and must be treated as such concerning the PA Game Laws.

    If an AR is bought and transferred as a complete PISTOL, it is a pistol and the owner does have the option to convert it into a rifle and then later, if they want, reconvert it back into a pistol (as allowed by BATFE regulations). It does not have to be reconverted into the original caliber, there is nothing in the regs in regards to changing the caliber. However, you can't convert it into a SBR unless you formally do it and then it becomes a rifle (because you have formally told the BATFE you have built it into a rifle and as such you can't convert it back into a pistol. You can make it into a standard rifle but it is a rifle now.

    If an AR lower receiver is purchased, virgin (stripped) or virgin (complete with either a pistol brace OR butt stock attached) it is still nothing more than a RECEIVER. It does not become a rifle or a pistol UNTIL the upper receiver is attached. Once you have attached the upper receiver that lower receiver becomes part of a rifle or a pistol and must, by law, be handled/recognized as what it was first built as. That said, if one buys a complete receiver with a butt stock attached and they put a pistol upper on it, even for just 30 seconds, they have built an illegal SBR. But unless a BATFE LEO (or other knowledgeable LEO) actually sees you do it, what is going to happen (shrug).

    NOW, BACK TO THE AR style RIFLE: You can change an AR rifle into a different weapon (notice I did not say short barreled rifle or pistol). You can Form 1 a rifle into a weapon called "Weapon made from a rifle" (WMFR) According to the NFA: "A weapon made from a rifle is a rifle type weapon that has an overall length of less than 26 inches OR a barrel of less than 16 inches in length". Problem is that this definition was written years ago before the advent of the AR style fireams and never changed.

    Think of it this way - you take a Remington 700, cut the butt off and form a pistol grip and cut the barrel to 12 inches. You then have a bolt action handgun or in the NFA language a "weapon made from a rifle" This is what is shown in the NFA handbook when they describe a WMFR. Now, using the BATFE/NFA language and definition, if you have a AR rifle and remove the butt stock and leave the buffer tube (or remove the butt stock for a firearm that doesn'r require a buffer tube) and put a 12" barrel upper, you have basically done the same thing as modifying the Remington. The NFA doesn't say you built a pistol, they say you made a "Weapon Made From a Rifle". Now, how does one figure out what they can or can't do with it - I HAVE NO IDEA (and I don't think the BATFE does either).

    The BATFE and NFA really didn't do their homework when the AR style firearms burst upon the scene. I truly think they didn't give it a thought until way too late and we see how things are going today. The NFA regs were written a long time ago and as such do not address this type of firearm and its extensive modularity and that is why, in my opinion, there are so many problems with how things are defined (correctly or incorrectly) in this arena.

    When it gets down to brass tacks(for the younger guys that means to get down to the core of something or to get down to the issue or task at hand), if you have an AR rifle and want an AR pistol, buy a virgin receiver, stripped or complete, and build a pistol, that way there's no argument on what came first, especially if you have multiple AR receivers and uppers in your collection.

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, just an FFL/SOT trying to figure things out like the rest of you but until someone in Washington really and truly takes the bull by the horns and seriously figures things out, discussions like this will NEVER go away.
    Ron USAF Ret E-8 FFL01/SOT3 NRA Benefactor Member

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Build Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by DucatiRon View Post
    Unreasonable laws are to keep manufacturers from just building rifles and not paying the proper tax on later building pistols.
    And government uses unreasonable laws to persecute people they dont like.

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