ATF declares Rare Breed Triggers a machine gun

[Ilikebuckets]

Latest update from Rare Breed owner:

it's a facebook posting but I still think anyone can view it (even without FB account).

~17 minutes long of a lot of legaleez (play by play of the law suits and court actions)

Last few minutes (@ ~ 14 minute mark) he addresses that buyer info is scrubbed from their records after the transaction is final.

Here*s the video on YouTube

[TonyF]

Latest update from Rare Breed owner:

Last few minutes (@ ~ 14 minute mark) he addresses that buyer info is scrubbed from their records after the transaction is final.

So there's no warranty with this thing? What are you supposed to do if you have a manufacturer's defect? You print and send them a copy of your on line receipt for proof of purchase along with the trigger and they repair or replace it, which then puts them back in the loop of traceability to buyers?

This is f'ed up on so many levels on both sides of the issue. The ATF certainly stepped in it by not amending their definitions(s) of what constitutes a machine gun BEFORE Rare Breed and others developed and marketed these products. Same goes with bump stocks. But hey, gov't bureaucracy in action, right? And now consumers may be in legal jeopardy.

The other thing I find amazing is that consumers of these products are shocked that ATF decided, albeit after the fact, that these things should be prohibited. Again, gov't bureaucracy in action. However, the fact that one can claim that they are "semi-auto" triggers belies the fact that they BEHAVE like a select-fire weapon on F/A. The 1934 NFA classified machine guns as Title II because of their high volume (cyclic rate) of fire because of risk to the public by criminal misuse. Recall what Justice Potter said in the 1964 pornography case, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, ...".

Arguing over whether FRT's are semi-auto triggers misses the point entirely vis a vis Potter's example in that these triggers replicate F/A capability. (edit)

Did anyone actually think the ATF was not going to react negatively to FRT's and bump stocks? Even if the bump stock lawsuit(s) overturn the current ban, the next step is Congress amending the 1934 NFA or granting ATF the authority to amend their definition(s) of what constitutes a semi-auto trigger. And no president, R or D, is going to veto any such legislation or sign an EO prohibiting the ATF a regulatory change in definitions.

For God's sake, even RB's website indicates you need a F/A bolt carrier for their trigger. How fine a line does anyone think ATF (or Congress) is going to allow marketers of these products to cross before they react? All I'm saying is that not to have expected a bungled, negative reaction to these products was wishful thinking. I've owned a couple registered MG's back in the day and had a close friend who owned half a dozen or so and these products are toys, nothing more. If anyone was seriously considering one of these triggers for that "long-awaited and terrifying SHTF" scenario, you're probably going to regret it because it will most likely fail you in the long run.

Sorry to be such a killjoy.

[Bang]

They should pass a law dictating that pulling/squeezing/pressing (did I get 'em all?) the trigger of a gun (avoids the firearm argument) in any manner...manually or mechanically.... at a frequency exceeding two times per second is illegal. That works out to 120 rounds per minute...more than enough allowance to use up every round in a 100-round drum with occasional aims. Surely that would suffice to succeed in a deer hunt, or triumph in a gun battle.

BOING BOING BOING BOING

[ShooterInPA1]

They should pass a law dictating that pulling/squeezing/pressing (did I get 'em all?) the trigger of a gun (avoids the firearm argument) in any manner...manually or mechanically.... at a frequency exceeding two times per second is illegal. That works out to 120 rounds per minute...more than enough allowance to use up every round in a 100-round drum with occasional aims. Surely that would suffice to succeed in a deer hunt, or triumph in a gun battle.

BOING BOING BOING BOING

Are you kidding? What they want is the uncertainty and ambiguity which allows them to write thense nonsensical "laws".

[TSimonetti]

They should pass a law dictating that pulling/squeezing/pressing (did I get 'em all?) the trigger of a gun (avoids the firearm argument) in any manner...manually or mechanically.... at a frequency exceeding two times per second is illegal. That works out to 120 rounds per minute...more than enough allowance to use up every round in a 100-round drum with occasional aims. Surely that would suffice to succeed in a deer hunt, or triumph in a gun battle.

BOING BOING BOING BOING

No, actually no one should support yet another law making more guns illegal. We already have plenty of those laws. Besides that, needs-based gun ownership laws are prone to being further exploited by the diabolical Left, who will use such laws on the books to submit amendments further re-defining what kind of guns we "need" and "don't need". Slippery slope is a proven thing.



I know I'm dreaming, but I wish we had something in writing that acknowledges that Americans have the Right to own and possess arms, and that the federal government cannot limit or undermine or encroach upon it.

[TSimonetti]

So there's no warranty with this thing? What are you supposed to do if you have a manufacturer's defect? You print and send them a copy of your on line receipt for proof of purchase along with the trigger and they repair or replace it, which then puts them back in the loop of traceability to buyers?

This is f'ed up on so many levels on both sides of the issue. The ATF certainly stepped in it by not amending their definitions(s) of what constitutes a machine gun BEFORE Rare Breed and others developed and marketed these products. Same goes with bump stocks. But hey, gov't bureaucracy in action, right? And now consumers may be in legal jeopardy.

The other thing I find amazing is that consumers of these products are shocked that ATF decided, albeit after the fact, that these things should be prohibited. Again, gov't bureaucracy in action. However, the fact that one can claim that they are "semi-auto" triggers belies the fact that they BEHAVE like a select-fire weapon on F/A. The 1934 NFA classified machine guns as Title II because of their high volume (cyclic rate) of fire because of risk to the public by criminal misuse. Recall what Justice Potter said in the 1964 pornography case, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, ...".

Arguing over whether FRT's are semi-auto triggers misses the point entirely vis a vis Potter's example in that these triggers replicate F/A capability. (edit)

Did anyone actually think the ATF was not going to react negatively to FRT's and bump stocks? Even if the bump stock lawsuit(s) overturn the current ban, the next step is Congress amending the 1934 NFA or granting ATF the authority to amend their definition(s) of what constitutes a semi-auto trigger. And no president, R or D, is going to veto any such legislation or sign an EO prohibiting the ATF a regulatory change in definitions.

For God's sake, even RB's website indicates you need a F/A bolt carrier for their trigger. How fine a line does anyone think ATF (or Congress) is going to allow marketers of these products to cross before they react? All I'm saying is that not to have expected a bungled, negative reaction to these products was wishful thinking. I've owned a couple registered MG's back in the day and had a close friend who owned half a dozen or so and these products are toys, nothing more. If anyone was seriously considering one of these triggers for that "long-awaited and terrifying SHTF" scenario, you're probably going to regret it because it will most likely fail you in the long run.

Sorry to be such a killjoy.

I think this deserves repeating. We can debate the technical nature of the ATF's legal overreach on bump stocks and triggers all day, but if you were to show a video of this trigger to normal Americans of all kinds, they will almost all say "Well heck yeah, it's a machine gun", and that doesn't automatically mean they are anti-gun or exceedingly ignorant about guns, they just know what they see. The Vegas mass shooting changed the trajectory on these kinds of devices forever. That doesn't mean all this newfound attention is warranted, but that's irrelevant.

The ATF is a power hungry government agency that wants control, it relishes control, and it loves the NFA and the 68 GCA and it's leadership views these triggers as someone crapping on their authority. Period.

[Bang]

Full auto law was in response to the Valentine's Day "massacre" and other episodes of gangster-feuding, thanks to federal government deciding we should not be allowed alcoholic drink. Government created the situation, and, as usual, believed it had the cure for the results. Prior to that, NY gangsters belonging to the Kennedy interests complained that their criminal activities were dangerously hampered by likewise armed citizenry, ergo the Sullivan Act.

I know I'm dreaming, but I wish we had something in writing that acknowledges that Americans have the Right to own and possess arms, and that the federal government cannot limit or undermine or encroach upon it.

Me too.

[RockIsland]

No, actually no one should support yet another law making more guns illegal. We already have plenty of those laws. Besides that, needs-based gun ownership laws are prone to being further exploited by the diabolical Left, who will use such laws on the books to submit amendments further re-defining what kind of guns we "need" and "don't need". Slippery slope is a proven thing.


I know I'm dreaming, but I wish we had something in writing that acknowledges that Americans have the Right to own and possess arms, and that the federal government cannot limit or undermine or encroach upon it.

#metoo

[JaySmith]

if you were to show a video of this trigger to normal Americans of all kinds, they will almost all say "Well heck yeah, it's a machine gun"

People can say stuff all day, but we have legal definitions for a reason. People look at my excursion and say "truck" but legally, it's classified as a station wagon. People look at my exwife and say "prostitute" but in reality, she gives it away for free. People look my current wife and think "he's got money and a big dick" but in reality, neither are true. Just because people think something doesn't make it true.

[Bang]

Just because people think something doesn't make it true.

Except if 12 get it wrong...it's as good as true and a big problem for an innocent.