Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #21
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Chambersburg, Pennsylvania
    (Franklin County)
    Age
    52
    Posts
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    Default Re: CCW Proof of Residency Validity

    Quote Originally Posted by Selviorn View Post
    Update: As my license renewal was issued less than six months ago they are requiring these proofs of residency. As per email:
    "Your License to Carry application has been withdrawn.

    Application withdrawn due to lack of "proof of residency" requirements. Due to your current license/ID being within 6 months of its issue date you will need to upload 2 of the following. These are the ONLY accepted documents per the state.

    - Mortgage Statement
    - Lease Agreement
    - Water
    - Sewer
    - Gas
    - Electric
    - Cable
    - Internet
    - House Phone or Cell Phone


    Your application fees will be refunded."

    Frustrating but understandable precaution.
    IMO, not lawful.

    PM Gunlawyer here. I will PM him as well. First hour consult and 1 hour for him to call the sheriff (if he thinks it's useful) is on me. I'm tired of this bullshit.
    Get your "Guns Save Lives" stickers today! PM for more info.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    127.0.0.1, Pennsylvania
    (Lancaster County)
    Posts
    20,347
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    21474874

    Default Re: CCW Proof of Residency Validity

    Apparently only property owners and those that pay bills are allowed to get an LTCF. I wonder how that would go with a similar requirement to vote.
    Rules are written in the stone,
    Break the rules and you get no bones,
    all you get is ridicule, laughter,
    and a trip to the house of pain.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Ercildoun, Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
    Posts
    5,507
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    21474853

    Default Re: CCW Proof of Residency Validity

    I bet Bucks County Sheriff would accept your PA Voter ID card just like they do at the voter sign in table. You have to be a resident to vote and show ID to prove it.
    Corruption is the default behavior of government officials. JPC

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    North Penn area, Pennsylvania
    Age
    64
    Posts
    4,664
    Rep Power
    21474854

    Default Re: CCW Proof of Residency Validity

    Quote Originally Posted by JenniferG View Post
    . You have to be a resident to vote and show ID to prove it.
    bfacepalm.jpg


    Were you asleep for the last 9mos?
    I don't speak English , I talk American!

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    (Philadelphia County)
    Posts
    3,731
    Rep Power
    21474851

    Default Re: CCW Proof of Residency Validity

    Quote Originally Posted by gnbrotz View Post
    Except that it's NOT required by statute, and the sheriff has no authority to impose it. The application requires DL information and address. Period. No leases, no utility bills.

    The scenario you presented (and all other "what abouts") are cover by the applicant's signature affirming the accuracy of the information provided.

    Sheriff's can't impose new conditions in an attempt to thwart fraud. Regardless of good intention, they simply do not have that authority, and that fact is long-established, and supported by the outcomes of lawsuits challenging this very type of behavior.
    So no one ever lied on the form and still signed their signature ?

    The sheriff has the authority to conduct an investigation. *That the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license*.

    Grant or denial of license- Upon receipt of an application for a LTCF, the sheriff shall, within 45 days, issue or refuse to issue a license on the basis of the investigation under subsection (d) and the accuracy of the information contained in the application.

    I believe that ensuring that the submitted information is correct, valid and accurate is reason to use a second source of documentation if a question arises.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Upper Darby, Pennsylvania
    (Delaware County)
    Age
    57
    Posts
    4,237
    Rep Power
    21474852

    Default Re: CCW Proof of Residency Validity

    Quote Originally Posted by gnbrotz View Post
    IMO, not lawful.

    PM Gunlawyer here. I will PM him as well. First hour consult and 1 hour for him to call the sheriff (if he thinks it's useful) is on me. I'm tired of this bullshit.
    Rep sent

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Bucks, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    13,616
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    21474867

    Default Re: CCW Proof of Residency Validity

    Quote Originally Posted by Carson View Post
    So no one ever lied on the form and still signed their signature ?

    The sheriff has the authority to conduct an investigation. *That the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license*.

    Grant or denial of license- Upon receipt of an application for a LTCF, the sheriff shall, within 45 days, issue or refuse to issue a license on the basis of the investigation under subsection (d) and the accuracy of the information contained in the application.

    I believe that ensuring that the submitted information is correct, valid and accurate is reason to use a second source of documentation if a question arises.
    If the OP is telling the truth, then what we have is NOT the sheriff doing an investigation, but instead the sheriff narrowing the classes of "people eligible for an LTCF" to "people who own mortgaged real estate, are a primary lessor, pay utilities for their entire families, or pay for their own phones in their own names". And at least 2 of that list.

    That's nowhere in the statute. If this is correct, and not some subordinate misinterpreting their process, then it's a violation of PA law.

    I suppose it's possible that residents of Philly are sick of their anti-gun government denying applications, and are looking to obtain them from adjacent counties in which they have friends. That's a problem, but it doesn't justify re-writing the law. There are plenty of long-term residents of any county, who live with their folks, or with their spouses or significant others, who don't have their names on monthly bills or mortgages or leases.

    There are other ways to verify residence. Have a deputy swing by and visit at the applicant's home. Look for contrary evidence of residence in another county. See where their tax withholding is going. Follow them home from work some Tuesday. Aggressively prosecute anyone who lies on the paperwork as unsworn written falsification.

    Further, the county requirement isn't the critical to keeping guns away from bad guys, it's arbitrary, and the eligibility requirements are uniform statewide. It's only because some counties make it harder that there's any reason to forum-shop. And out-of-state residents are eligible in any county.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Chambersburg, Pennsylvania
    (Franklin County)
    Age
    52
    Posts
    11,841
    Rep Power
    21474864

    Default Re: CCW Proof of Residency Validity

    Quote Originally Posted by Carson View Post
    So no one ever lied on the form and still signed their signature ?
    I'm sure they have, but the logic you're supporting is basically the same as saying "ban guns because bad guys use them". You can't impose unlawful additional requirements on others, because of the bad behavior of some, even if you can prove that the bad behavior is taking place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carson View Post
    The sheriff has the authority to conduct an investigation. *That the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license*.
    Correct. One of the disqualifiers is being a "drunkard". The Sheriff can "investigate" that all they want, but they cannot compel me to submit a list of the alcohol in my home, or answer questions (in writing or in person) about my drinking habits. The burden of proof is on the sheriff, and just like the police, one can't be assumed to be guilty simply because they won't "cooperate" when they aren't legally compelled to do so.
    Get your "Guns Save Lives" stickers today! PM for more info.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Bucks, Pennsylvania
    Posts
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    Default Re: CCW Proof of Residency Validity

    Quote Originally Posted by gnbrotz View Post
    I'm sure they have, but the logic you're supporting is basically the same as saying "ban guns because bad guys use them". You can't impose unlawful additional requirements on others, because of the bad behavior of some, even if you can prove that the bad behavior is taking place.



    Correct. One of the disqualifiers is being a "drunkard". The Sheriff can "investigate" that all they want, but they cannot compel me to submit a list of the alcohol in my home, or answer questions (in writing or in person) about my drinking habits. The burden of proof is on the sheriff, and just like the police, one can't be assumed to be guilty simply because they won't "cooperate" when they aren't legally compelled to do so.
    Intrusiveness and compelled cooperation are certainly important objections to this, but the fact is that most households have more than 1 person in them, while utilities typically only have 1 name. That leaves the others members of that family without the ability to produce utility bills with their names on them, which then means that the requirement for processing the application becomes an unlawful PROHIBITOR. So being a felon or crackhead means you can't get an LTCF, and now SO DOES LETTING YOUR GIRLFRIEND PAY THE CABLE BILL. Not exactly comparable, and not put into the law by the legislature and Governor. It's an alteration of the statute by a county official.

    Just imagine if they made this a requirement for voting.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Douglassville, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
    Posts
    11,744
    Rep Power
    21474859

    Default Re: CCW Proof of Residency Validity

    Quote Originally Posted by Carson View Post
    So no one ever lied on the form and still signed their signature ?
    Hunter Biden comes to mind. Oops, different form.
    Gender confusion is a mental illness

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