Legality of carrying your permit in your phone

[theshadow]

§ 6122. Proof of license and exception.

(a) General rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.

(b) Exception.--An individual carrying a firearm on or about his person or in a vehicle and claiming an exception under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license) shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce satisfactory evidence of qualification for exception.

Notice, it says the person shall produce the license for inspection, not just proving you have a license by photo or other means. So yeah, you are expected to carry and be able to produce the license.

Would I accept running your info and finding out you have a LTCF? If everything else is on the up and up during our interaction, probably yeah.

And it's (15) days to produce your drivers license. Actually, it says you cannot be convicted (found guilty) for not having the license if you produce it within 15 days.

Your own quote gives leeway "Failure to produce such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing" So the Photo may keep you out of jail, may not, as long as you present the physical license at the preliminary hearing you are covered. A reasonable individual will conclude the photographic evidence is proof of the physical property which would have the case dismissed at prelims, but at the same time a hard case could make it difficult as well going strictly by the letter of the law.

[Carson]

This topic comes up periodically here. Just look below the last comment for "similar threads" or here :https://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=198616. Benn carrying a digital scan(laminated) in my wallet for years. Has all the info any PD should need. Of all the things in the wallet, the LTCF is the most pain to replace in this day and age. If any PD needs to see the original, then they can produce a demand letter. Take the letter with you to your lawyer and see how to proceed. (This is not legal advice). Ever watch Lone Star Law? Half the people when asked to produce a license, have an image on their phone they use. Now that is Texas and I know we are talking about PA so ...maybe GunLawyer or SigForLife could chime in.

Should I ask for an appointment, which meets your schedule also ?

[Knightshift]

Your license on your phone is one thing but LTCF on phone says 'find guns here'. But I guess if someone found or stole my phone they would see all my guns and ammo apps anyway so better use a PIN or password. Just PIN protected mine this morning, thanks to this thread.

[Carson]

I would argue, that there is no requirement to be able to present your license to carry firearms at any time. Just proof of license, which you can easily do simply by providing your name, and they can call LTCF number.

Unlike say, a driver*s license where you are required to have it with you when operating a motor vehicle, and required to present it under defined circumstances.

Farther more: the usual outcome of
Not having your driver license is to be required to present it to the cops within 3 days, if say, you forget it and get pulled over. Given that this is the common practice for something that the law says you have to carry on you, expecting more of a LTCF is unreasonable.

While it is usually in the early morning, the computer system goes down for maintenance. Then what?

This shouldn*t be so complicated. Carry the original or a very good photo copy of it or a photo/document scan on your phone. Have it as a Lock Screen so you don*t have to open the phone.

I have everything in my phone as either a photo or a scan. DL, city ID, car reg, car ins, passport, TSA precheck card, work schedule, COVID vax card , MPO card, medical insurance card, library card (just kidding), photos of firearm serial numbers, etc.

[V300]

Any LE agency is the last place you should call for legal advice. If you want the best answer possible, pay a versed attorney (who will likely give you the same answer you've already gotten here).

"The license" is a real tangible thing, in which courts have ruled you have an actual property interest, so if there is a scenario where you need "the thing", than that's what you need, not a facsimile. In a pinch, a photo of it MIGHT keep you out of jail, but making the photo your daily replacement is a really bad idea.

While you are certainly right about cops not being a reliable source of info, "My attorney said" is equally useless when you're on the side of a road trying to convince a cop not to remind you why most people don't like or trust cops.

I have had cops tell me that a legal notarized opinion issued by the Pa attorney general was insufficient proof i was behaving in a professionally legal manner. The words "this could be a forgery" let me know immediately i was dealing with "that guy."

I have had cops threaten to arrest me for informing them that they were completely mistaken and providing the pa statute on my phone or on hard copy at the scene. (I'm a retired private investigator)

I think this is an issue where, if you run into "that guy", you better have your permit on your person.

In any case, i contacted the sheriffs office and was told you MUST carry the card on your person.

I have on one occasion presented an image of my drivers license on my phone, and it had an image of my LTCF in the same frame. The cop in question didn't care about being given a photo for the DL, and he didn't even bother to ask about whether or not I was carrying a gun or not.

Bottom line, this is clearly a "that guy" issue. So to be safe, be sure to carry the card. I would also carry an image of it on your phone, just in case.

One other bit of advice, i always send a photo of my license to my trusted relatives. i had a relative long ago get beat up and locked up by the philly pd, who conveniently tossed his license to carry in the gutter and arrested him for illegally carrying a firearm. His attorney was able to show up at the Popo district with a copy of the license and get him released before formal charges were pressed.

He ran into several "that guys" that night.

[V300]

§ 6122. Proof of license and exception.

(a) General rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.

(b) Exception.--An individual carrying a firearm on or about his person or in a vehicle and claiming an exception under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license) shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce satisfactory evidence of qualification for exception.

Notice, it says the person shall produce the license for inspection, not just proving you have a license by photo or other means. So yeah, you are expected to carry and be able to produce the license.

Would I accept running your info and finding out you have a LTCF? If everything else is on the up and up during our interaction, probably yeah.

And it's (15) days to produce your drivers license. Actually, it says you cannot be convicted (found guilty) for not having the license if you produce it within 15 days.

What i was really hoping to get out of this thread was a court decision on this issue.

I'm sure at some point someone has been arrested for just having a photo copy or an image on a phone, and one would imagine that said person fought it in court and there was a ruling on it, one way or another.

But i do also rather suspect that most cops would be fine with a photo on your phone, or a photo copy, and that most DA's would be too. So you'd have to get a double whammy of a "that guy" cop and a "that guy" DA to get jammed up over this. Which, though unlikely, can and does happen.

However, the safest answer is obviously "carry the card on you."

Which is great...but also not foolproof. As my relative who was arrested after the cops stole/lost/threw away his permit and then arrested him for carrying illegally can attest to.

The bottom line is that there is no legal protection from a sufficiently corrupt cop when you are standing on the side of the road at 3am.

[V300]

Your license on your phone is one thing but LTCF on phone says 'find guns here'. But I guess if someone found or stole my phone they would see all my guns and ammo apps anyway so better use a PIN or password. Just PIN protected mine this morning, thanks to this thread.

Then this thread has accomplished something good.

Glad to help.

[V300]

While it is usually in the early morning, the computer system goes down for maintenance. Then what?

Then it's up to the cop. Your demeanor, manner of dress, race, hairstyle, attitude and background and the cops prejudices, hobbies and pet peeves may all determine whether you get to go to jail or not.

If the cop is a veteran who likes mustangs and you're a veteran in a mustang, you're probably not going to jail. On the flip side his wife might have left him for an ex paratrooper that drives a mustang, in which case you're probably fked.

I believe someone posted in this thread as long as you can present the hard copy of the ID (or i'd assume a letter from the issuing agency) at the prelim the charges will be dropped, so at least that's something.

[PAMedic=F|A=]

But now the officer has a photo of the drivers license. He could utilize software to manipulate the info on it and commit all kinds of forgery and debauchery. He should sue and hold the company responsible.

IT was a photo of the insurance card. I applaud your desire to aggressively keep your law enforcement brothers in line, but I don't believe in pre crime.

[PAMedic=F|A=]

§ 6122. Proof of license and exception.

(a) General rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.

(b) Exception.--An individual carrying a firearm on or about his person or in a vehicle and claiming an exception under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license) shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce satisfactory evidence of qualification for exception.

Notice, it says the person shall produce the license for inspection, not just proving you have a license by photo or other means. So yeah, you are expected to carry and be able to produce the license.

Would I accept running your info and finding out you have a LTCF? If everything else is on the up and up during our interaction, probably yeah.

And it's (15) days to produce your drivers license. Actually, it says you cannot be convicted (found guilty) for not having the license if you produce it within 15 days.

And yet the law for a driver's license says clearly it must be carried at all times. No exception. LTCF must only be produced. I can produce my tax statement for the last few years, and am required to do so under demand by the IRS. I can produce the title's for the cars, I can produce my children's birth certificates and social security cards, but I do not carry them on my person
§ 1511. Carrying and exhibiting driver's license on demand.
(a) General rule.--Every licensee shall possess a driver's
license issued to the licensee at all times when driving a motor
vehicle and shall exhibit the license upon demand by a police
officer, and when requested by the police officer the licensee
shall write the licensee's name in the presence of the officer
in order to provide identity.

While it is usually in the early morning, the computer system goes down for maintenance. Then what?

This shouldn*t be so complicated. Carry the original or a very good photo copy of it or a photo/document scan on your phone. Have it as a Lock Screen so you don*t have to open the phone.

I have everything in my phone as either a photo or a scan. DL, city ID, car reg, car ins, passport, TSA precheck card, work schedule, COVID vax card , MPO card, medical insurance card, library card (just kidding), photos of firearm serial numbers, etc.

Not sure why you replied to me. I agree with you. Unlike Steve. Although to answer your first line, they're required to be available 24/7 for confirmation. Going down for any reason isn't an option or allowed by law. So whoever is working should be criminally charged by the officer involved. If, God forbid, some poor innocent person is arrested because the cop in say, ohio can't verify a LTCF, then additional charges for deprivation of liberty should of course, be added. It is 2021, there is no reason any critical computer system should ever be down, and no reason the paper records shouldn't be kept up to date daily.