Indiana county requires residency for 3 years before issuing permits?

[danp]

The note in our database states

The Indiana county Sheriff stated that applicants must have lived in Indiana county for 3 years before they can get a carry permit.

This seems like a more blatant violation than the previous question regarding non-resident permits which directly impacts PA residents unfairly.

Can any of you guys find anything in the law that would allow them to set this type of restriction?

The only thing I can possibly imagine is:

(i) An individual whose character and reputation is such that the individual would be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety.

Which they could try to argue since they don't know the person they can't safely say they are not a danger to public safety. However since we are a shall-issue state that argument would seem very weak.

As usual I'd like to verify this is even true once again in case I talked to someone mis-informed, but I'd be interested in knowing what you guys think before calling the m up.

[Rule10b5]

I can't see how that policy doesn't violate the UFA.

I checked their website.

Q. What are the qualifications for obtaining a firearm permit in Indiana County?
A. 1) Applicant must be 21 years of age.
2) Applicant must answer all questions honestly.
3) Applicant must be a resident of Indiana County for at least 3 years..

http://www.countyofindiana.org/shgunper.htm

The page hasn't been updated since 2002, maybe they've changed since then? In any case, we should send a letter.

[danp]

The page hasn't been updated since 2002, maybe they've changed since then? In any case, we should send a letter.

I'm going to give them a call one more time just to verify.

I've modified your letter from last time to fit this situation. If you see any blatantly bad wording, terminology, or typos let me know.

Dear Sheriff ____________

I write on behalf of the Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association (the “PAFOA”). The PAFOA is a non-profit organization created with the goal of preserving the individual right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by Article 1, Section 21 of Pennsylvania Constitution and the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution.

Recently, we were contacted by residents and potential future residents of Indiana County who were each seeking, pursuant to 18 Pa.C.S. §6109, a Pennsylvania License to Carry Firearms (“LCF”). They informed us that they (i) Had recently moved to Indiana County or planned to move to Indiana County; (ii) contacted your office, and were informed by your personnel that your office requires applicants to be residents of Indiana County for 3 years before a permit will be issued.

Pennsylvania’s Uniform Firearms Act, 18 Pa.C.S. §6100 et seq. (the “UFA”) states that:

(1) A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle and shall be issued if, after an investigation not to exceed 45 days, it appears that the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license. A license shall not be issued to any of the following:

(i) An individual whose character and reputation is such that the individual would be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety.
(ii) An individual who has been convicted of an offense under the act of April 14, 1972 (P.L.233, No.64), known as The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
(iii) An individual convicted of a crime enumerated in section 6105.
(iv) An individual who, within the past ten years, has been adjudicated delinquent for a crime enumerated in section 6105 or for an offense under The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
(v) An individual who is not of sound mind or who has ever been committed to a mental institution.
(vi) An individual who is addicted to or is an unlawful user of marijuana or a stimulant, depressant or narcotic drug.
(vii) An individual who is a habitual drunkard.
(viii) An individual who is charged with or has been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year except as provided for in section 6123 (relating to waiver of disability or pardons).
(ix) A resident of another state who does not possess a current license or permit or similar document to carry a firearm issued by that state if a license is provided for by the laws of that state, as published annually in the Federal Register by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury under 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(19) (relating to definitions).
(x) An alien who is illegally in the United States.
(xi) An individual who has been discharged from the armed forces of the United States under dishonorable conditions.
(xii) An individual who is a fugitive from justice. This subparagraph does not apply to an individual whose fugitive status is based upon nonmoving or moving summary offense under Title 75 (relating to vehicles.)
(xiii) An individual who is otherwise prohibited from possessing, using, manufacturing, controlling, purchasing, selling or transferring a firearm as provided by section 6105.

Given that each individual who contacted us claims to meet the requirements necessary to receive an LCF in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania per the UCF, we are curious as to the legal basis for your office's declination to issue permits to otherwise qualified applicants who simply have not been residents for the minimum 3 years. While we understand that your office is occupied with other, certainly, more important law enforcement duties than the issuance of LCFs, we would greatly appreciate an answer to this question for our, and our members' sake.

We look forward to hearing from you soon.

Warm Regards,


------------------
Title, PAFOA

--------

[danp]

I just called and verified that this is still policy.

[Rule10b5]

Minor edits to the text -- your formatting was fine but I can't seem to duplicate it on here:

----

Dear Sheriff ____________

I write on behalf of the Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association (the “PAFOA”). The PAFOA is a non-profit organization created with the goal of preserving the individual right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by Article 1, Section 21 of Pennsylvania Constitution and the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution.

Recently, we were contacted by residents and potential future residents of Indiana County who were each seeking, pursuant to 18 Pa.C.S. §6109, a Pennsylvania License to Carry Firearms (“LCF”). They informed us that they (i) had recently moved to Indiana County or planned to move to Indiana County; (ii) contacted your office, and were informed by your personnel that your office requires applicants to be residents of Indiana County for 3 years before a permit will be issued.

Pennsylvania’s Uniform Firearms Act, 18 Pa.C.S. §6100 et seq. (the “UFA”) states that:

(1) A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle and shall be issued if, after an investigation not to exceed 45 days, it appears that the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license. A license shall not be issued to any of the following:

(i) An individual whose character and reputation is such that the individual would be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety.
(ii) An individual who has been convicted of an offense under the act of April 14, 1972 (P.L.233, No.64), known as The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
(iii) An individual convicted of a crime enumerated in section 6105.
(iv) An individual who, within the past ten years, has been adjudicated delinquent for a crime enumerated in section 6105 or for an offense under The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
(v) An individual who is not of sound mind or who has ever been committed to a mental institution.
(vi) An individual who is addicted to or is an unlawful user of marijuana or a stimulant, depressant or narcotic drug.
(vii) An individual who is a habitual drunkard.
(viii) An individual who is charged with or has been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year except as provided for in section 6123 (relating to waiver of disability or pardons).
(ix) A resident of another state who does not possess a current license or permit or similar document to carry a firearm issued by that state if a license is provided for by the laws of that state, as published annually in the Federal Register by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury under 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(19) (relating to definitions).
(x) An alien who is illegally in the United States.
(xi) An individual who has been discharged from the armed forces of the United States under dishonorable conditions.
(xii) An individual who is a fugitive from justice. This subparagraph does not apply to an individual whose fugitive status is based upon nonmoving or moving summary offense under Title 75 (relating to vehicles.)
(xiii) An individual who is otherwise prohibited from possessing, using, manufacturing, controlling, purchasing, selling or transferring a firearm as provided by section 6105.

Given that each individual who contacted us claims to meet the prima facie requirements necessary to receive an LCF in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania pusuant to the UFA, we are curious as to the specific statutory (or case law) basis for your office's declination to issue permits to otherwise qualified applicants who simply have not been residents for the minimum 3 years. While we understand that your office is occupied with other, certainly, more important law enforcement duties than the issuance of LCFs, we would greatly appreciate an answer to this question for our, and our members' sake.

We look forward to hearing from you soon.

Warm Regards,

[danp]

As usual, thanks a million Rule. I'll send this out and see what they say.

[Rule10b5]

As usual, thanks a million Rule. I'll send this out and see what they say.

Suing them would suck. They're 250 miles from where we are.

[ChamberedRound]

Suing them would suck. They're 250 miles from where we are.

Don't worry, I'm sure the PAFOA will pay your travel expenses with it's huge coffers... right?... um...

[Rule10b5]

Don't worry, I'm sure the PAFOA will pay your travel expenses with it's huge coffers... right?... um...

Lunch, gas, and tolls is all I ask. My car, pictured (not my actual car, but one exactly like it), gets about 12-15 mpg.

The big problem with these sorts of cases isn't that they're 250 miles away and you're on a volunteer budget, the issue is that state court cases are heard by state court judges -- who have hearings over every little thing and probably haven't ever dealt with a lawyer who would travel 250 miles for a case. That means that they set up bullshit hearings, cancel them at the last minute, and don't have a care in the world that each hearing is a 500 mi round trip.

Given, it's a pretty simple case, but you never know...

If push comes to shove, we're going to need a nominal plaintiff -- someone in or considering a move to Indiana County. The best place to start would be with one of the members in IC who already has a carry permit, but knows someone who moved to the county within the last three years. Then they apply, get denied, and then sue. Gunlawyer has done a bunch of permit denials so I'm sure he has the requisite form pleadings. Fill em out and file em, basically.

This is a much better course than simply suing outright -- there are a bunch of issues about who can challenge what conduct (it's called standing to sue, or simply standing).

[danp]

Response received from Sheriff Fyock:

Dear Mr. Pehrson,

I am writing in response to your letter which I received. I am a firm supporter in the second amendment and believe in a citizens right to keep and bear arms.

I take the information as you provided in your letter seriously. I have asked our solicitor to review our permit application process. While I can not comment as to the specific applicants, I would urge any Indiana County Resident which you are in contact with, to make application with my office. My policy has been to review each application on a case by case basis, in compliance with our governing laws.

Respectfully,
Robert E. Fyock
Sheriff

Sounds to me like he's a reasonable guy and probably is a pro-RKBA guy. I'm going to draft another letter to send back to him, I'll post it here shortly for review.

I get the feeling that this policy is something he's not really that concerned about and even may have inherited from a previous Sheriff and just never questioned it.