Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Rifle private sale questions

    I am looking to sell a rifle and there's a lot of information swirling around and it seems the more i read the more confused i am.

    I want to sell to a PA resident, so the best of my understanding is no FFL. Is FFL still a good idea? Should I get a bill of sale to verify sale? I want to be protected, but I don't want to overly inconvenience the buyer.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Rifle private sale questions

    A standard is to ask the buyer for a drivers license and (LTCF) license to carry firearms. I have sold one rifle to a guy who didn't have a LTCF. He said he bought gun before but doesn't carry, due to work and traveling. He provided me with a very recent 4473, for a pistol purchase. That satisfied my request. We then did a (FTF) face to face transaction.

    If you feel uncertain or uneasy about a transfer, you have two other options. A paid background check, or refuse the sale.

    Somewhere on the forum is a "sticky" for a private transfer form. Print out two forms. One for you and one for him. If he is 18 to 20 you can sell a long gun to him. Hope this helps.


    https://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=3241
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Rifle private sale questions

    While I'm 100% opposed to using an FFL to transfer long guns since it's not a legal requirement to do so, the only way to truly "protect" yourself is by doing a FFL transfer.

    "Cover your ass" goes pretty much in this order of protecting yourself to no protection at all.

    FFL transfer.

    The next best thing is to ask to see a LTCF and do a bill of sale. Have the buyer and seller complete the info and each keeps a copy.
    The LTCF at least tells you that the person buying wasn't prohibited at the time they got the LTCF.

    After that would be a bill of sale without the LTCF.

    After that, would be simply asking to see a driver's license to prove that they are a PA resident. (because if both are not PA residents, it must be transferred at an FFL) No bill of sale completed.

    After that would be the simple handshake.


    For long guns, I've done all of the above - except for the FFL transfer - when buying and selling.

    This is the bill of sale that I use.
    https://eforms.com/images/2015/12/te...e-791x1024.png
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Rifle private sale questions

    Thank you for the information.

    Since it's not a law, I prefer not to have the goverment involved where it isn't needed. I would exclusively be doing a face to face transfer, I'm not shipping anything anywhere. To many things to go wrong since I'm not set up to ship.

    I'm curious, what does LTCF offer over a drivers license(other than to prove he's not a prohibited person)? I've been a gun owner in PA for 15 years, but only received my LTCF last month. It feels discriminatory, but I feel like it's reasonable proof I'm not transferring to someone who is a prohibited person.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Rifle private sale questions

    If I don't know the buyer, I ask "Are you a PA resident?" and "Are you a prohibited person?". If they affirm they are, and are not respectively, the sale is good to go.

    It's possible to be a non-resident and still be in possession of a valid PA DL, it's possible to be barred from LTCF and still be allowed to own long arms, and it's possible to hold a LTCF and still be disqualified from possession based on clear statute, so in my mind, those extra steps really don't "prove" anything.

    Statute requires that I "not know" they are prohibited. Their answers provide me a basis to make that decision. I am not obligated to *prove* their eligibility, and as the government must do, I assume innocence until guilt has been proven.
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Rifle private sale questions

    Keep records of all firearm transactions ! what you sold 5 years ago could have been used in a crime and you were one of last ownership !Speaking from experience It pays to keep all records to C Y A !

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Rifle private sale questions

    Quote Originally Posted by gnbrotz View Post
    If I don't know the buyer, I ask "Are you a PA resident?" and "Are you a prohibited person?". If they affirm they are, and are not respectively, the sale is good to go.

    It's possible to be a non-resident and still be in possession of a valid PA DL, it's possible to be barred from LTCF and still be allowed to own long arms, and it's possible to hold a LTCF and still be disqualified from possession based on clear statute, so in my mind, those extra steps really don't "prove" anything.

    Statute requires that I "not know" they are prohibited. Their answers provide me a basis to make that decision. I am not obligated to *prove* their eligibility, and as the government must do, I assume innocence until guilt has been proven.
    I would like to have an understanding of this, if you could help me out on it. Otherwise, I had thought that having a LTCF indicated that the holder had already been screened by the PSP and safe to sell a long gun to. While I am not in favor of government intervention, if we don't police these sales ourselves, piglosi and fineswine will do it for (to) us.
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Rifle private sale questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Walleye Hunter View Post
    I would like to have an understanding of this, if you could help me out on it. Otherwise, I had thought that having a LTCF indicated that the holder had already been screened by the PSP and safe to sell a long gun to. While I am not in favor of government intervention, if we don't police these sales ourselves, piglosi and fineswine will do it for (to) us.
    Would you agree that it's possible to be an "unlawful user" of controlled substances, yet have no criminal record?

    If so, lying on the LTCF form, with no actual convictions, will likely result in getting a LTCF, even though you are factually prohibited from both the LTCF AND possession.

    Sure, an individual can lie to me, but they can also lie to 'the man', so the supposed "proof" I'm relying on can be just as faulty as a verbal answer to my own questions.
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Rifle private sale questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Walleye Hunter View Post
    I would like to have an understanding of this, if you could help me out on it. Otherwise, I had thought that having a LTCF indicated that the holder had already been screened by the PSP and safe to sell a long gun to. While I am not in favor of government intervention, if we don't police these sales ourselves, piglosi and fineswine will do it for (to) us.
    A person could still have a lctf card but it be suspended for a pfa or other issues

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Rifle private sale questions

    Quote Originally Posted by USMC3531 View Post
    A person could still have a lctf card but it be suspended for a pfa or other issues
    There is no such thing as a "suspended" LTCF. It's either valid, or revoked. If revoked, the holder is required to surrender it back to the Sheriff within 5 days of notice.

    I suppose it's possible one could try to quickly make a private purchase after revocation by showing it before turning it back in, but I think the odds of that scenario happening are pretty low.
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