M1 Carbine Question

[mollymaguire]

Hi,

I am looking for a nice refurbished M1 carbine. I know that after WW II , the rifles were refubished by adding a bayonet lug, paddle safety release, and adjustable rear sight. I am thinking that these three features all go together.

At gun shows and on line, I see many examples with different combinations of these features, for example, no bayonet lug and an adjustable rear sight, or very commonly, a bayonet lug, adjustable rear sight and the old push button mag release. Does this mean that the rifle is not authentic or that someone ruined the value by adding aftermarket parts? Or was the refurbishing done in stages?

Good examples of these rifles are getting difficult to find.

Thanks for the help.

[GOYABEAN]

Check hear RTI

https://www.royaltigerimports.com/pr...erm=2020-10-17

[Carson]

I bought two from the Civilian Marksmanship Program. One has a lever safety and the other a push button safety. One a flat top bolt carrier and the other a round bolt carrier. Both have adjustable sights and bayonet lugs. It*s just how they came through the rebuild. As long as you get a USGI version you should be good.

There is an older gentleman who frequents the major shows, I forget his name at the moment, who is a wealth of knowledge on the U. S. M-1 Carbine.

[Noah_Zark]

Hi,

At gun shows and on line, I see many examples with different combinations of these features, for example, no bayonet lug and an adjustable rear sight, or very commonly, a bayonet lug, adjustable rear sight and the old push button mag release. Does this mean that the rifle is not authentic or that someone ruined the value by adding aftermarket parts? Or was the refurbishing done in stages?

In a word, no.

When M1 Carbines were produced, it was the height of the war and "parts was parts;" not all Carbine manufacturers made all parts, and there were dozens if not hundreds of small parts contractors. It will be common to find an IBM carbine with an Inland barrel, for example. Things were mixed up to start with.

Late war, post-war, and post-Korea the majority of Carbines that saw service went through reconditioning and upgrading at US ordnance depots and at contractors. For example, FN in Belgium refurbished and upgraded Carbines as well as M1 Rifles following WWII. Generally the latest versions of "standard" parts were installed. If a particular Carbine needed a new barrel, one was taken from stock and installed, so it's possible that a Saginaw barrel may have been installed on a Rock Ola carbine for example. This doesn't make it not authentic, just not "as built," "original," etc. Still every bit authentic, because either a US facility or a US contractor did the work.

During the Post-WWII, Korea, and Cold War eras, Carbines (and M1 Rifles) were sent to allies to arm their forces. Such allies using Carbines included South Korea, South Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Phillipines, Taiwan, Columbia, Panama, Austria, Italy, Greece, Denmark, West Germany, Norway, and more. Each of these had their own maintenance programs, and used USGI parts and indigenous parts for repair/replacement. Many of these Carbines were reimported to the US during the 50s and 60s up to 1968, then after 1985. Many of these may not be wearing USGI stocks and handguards, for example.

The CMP-sold Carbines generally came back from European allies, and although they may be wearing non-USGI furniture and may be a mix of parts, they are still mostly authentic and their lineage is more readily traceable. The CMP went over these with a detailed inspection process and some parts were replaced with USGI parts, others not. So it is not uncommon for a CMP-sold Carbine to have non-USGI stocks.

Then, we come to what I consider a travesty of Carbine and Garand collecting, the whole obsession over Carbines and Garands needing to be "correct" as-built, or "all matching." When Carbines were reimported commercially during the late 80s, their barrels were import marked per BATFE rules. Because there were TONS of surplus USGI Carbine parts that were sold after .gov stopped issuing the Carbine, hundreds of firearms (Carbine in particular) enthusiasts either had stocks of NIW USGI parts, or had ready access to them from commercial gun parts sellers. The vast amount of surplus USGI Carbine parts enabled individuals and businesses to set up a cottage industry buying import-marked Carbines, and swapping the barrels and other parts to manufacture a Carbine that was now "correct" and "all matching" as-built. Suddenly, an unmolested Inland Carbine with a Saginaw barrel was regarded as "not correct" even though it certainly was due to the War Production Board sending parts where they were needed during 1943-1944, in favor of these put-together "correct" Carbines, for example one with all Inland parts. This is not to say that Inland did not make Carbines with "all Inland" parts, or with subcontractor parts made for Inland Manufacturing; they certainly did. But if Inland ran short of particular parts, other Carbine manufacturers were instructed to share their stocks to keep the lines running and the shipping crates filled. Parts was parts.

But now the Carbine collector market has these put-together "correct" guns, driven by greed because collectors (many who did not know better, and even more who still don't) would pay a premium for a "correct" example. It's very difficult to tell an actual manufacturer-built "correct" Carbine from 1943-44 from one assembled by a USGI parts hoarder in 1989 and offered as "correct." Some of these "correct" gun parts-swappers even had parkerizing setups to refinish a gun for added authenticity, when in reality most authentic as-built Carbines exhibit parts with varying coloration to their parkerizing. For example, the color of the extractor may not match the color of the bolt, and that's authentic. Trouble is, so much time has passed since many of the parts-swapped "correct" carbines were assembled since the late 80s, and many have changed hands so much that it is now impossible to tell if a given example is truly "correct" as built, or was made "correct" by a parts-swapper.

And that brings us to commercial carbines and parts. Companies like Plainfield Machine, Universal, Iver Johnson, IWI, and Auto-Ordnance/Kahr (among MANY others) built replica Carbines since the 1950s. Some of these guns were built using the TONS of USGI surplus parts, and others had commercial non-GI parts. It was with these guns that ventilated stamped steel handguards were introduced, which were NEVER issued on a USGI Carbine. Yet because Carbine owners thought they were "cool", many USGI Carbine owners bought such trash from the aftermarket and put them on their USGI Carbines. Some USGI examples coming out of estates can still be found with these cheesegraters, or replica folding M1A1 "paratrooper" stocks, or replica flash hiders.

The whole M1 Carbine collecting scene is a hot mess, and it one of the reasons I got out of it in the early-mind 1990s. I had 33 M1 Carbines at one point, and when the market flooded with parts-swapped faux "correct" Carbines I got disgusted with the whole thing and bailed. But my experience and outlook is no reason not to pursue acquisition of a good example. Spend a lot of time on the CMP forum, Gunboards, and other forums and websites specializing in the M1 Carbine and educate, educate, educate. Look at every carbine you see in a store or gun show, and educate some more. Good luck!

Noah

[mollymaguire]

Thank you for the detailed response. That was very helpful!

[Delkal]

There are still a lot of push button safeties out there that didn't get swapped in the rebuild process so there is nothing wrong with it.. I believe the bayo lug and adjustable sites were supposed to be upgraded at the same time for the Korean war so it would be uncommon to find one mismatched. If you do see one it was probably someone replacing them with the earlier parts. It is easy to tell if the bayonet lug was replaced at one time because it almost always leaves marks on the barrel. If you see a rifle with the WWII barrel band and marks on the barrel it was replaced. For rebuilt mixmasters in most cases stuff like this does not lower (or increase) the value of a rifle. It is still all USGI so have fun shooting it. It is only for an advanced collector willing to pay a big premium for an "original" rifle where swapping / repro parts become an issue.

[Bang]

I bought one at the Harrisburg show I guess about 8 years ago from a guy who was carrying it with a for sale stuck in the muzzle. It seemed like a fair deal and I bought it. THEN I educated myself about them, and learned I had bought "just a shooter" by collector standards. But even so, it was interesting research, and I enjoy shooting it immensely. Betcha it's worth more than I paid now, and I don't care. It'll stay with me as long as I'm around. And if you walk by and glance at it, betcha you won't spot anything "wrong" with it.

[Delkal]

If it is all USGI "just a shooter" is over $1000 now. I have not even seen an all correct carbine and have no idea what one would be worth if you could prove it. They are rare. You have a better chance finding an all correct Garand. And even if you wanted to pay thousands for a "collector" grade you would still need a shooter. Why have an expensive safe queen? Blast away on your carbine and have fun.

[scruff]

Ignorance is bliss. I'm not a collector. I don't know much about mine, and I really don't care. I'm one of the lucky 1,000 to get an M1 carbine from the CMP in 2016. It's a 1944 Inland receiver with a 1944 Inland barrel, it has a bayonet lug, a rotating safety lever, and an adjustable sight. I think the "LGKT" on the trigger guard shows that it was returned from Austria.

It's a great gun. 100% authentic, and everybody loves to shoot it.

[brian]

all those features showed up late in ww2.