Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #81
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    (Lancaster County)
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    Default Re: PA PICS Denial and Challenge Question - Wait until you hear this one!

    Quote Originally Posted by PAMedic=F|A= View Post
    I would expect my wife to:

    First, respect me as an adult to make my own choices.
    Second, not falsify a legal document that leads directly to my incarceration. Which is exactly what a 302 in Pennsylvania is.

    I trust my wife. She has been my blanket power of attorney for well over a decade to include two deployments, and I think the most recent one will put it at over 20 by the time it expires (is have to look, might have made a point to have it not expire this time).

    If she pulled a stunt like that I would be divorced, and would be speaking with an attorney to figure out what criminal charges could be filed.
    Something very easy to say for someone that's fully aware of the ramifications of a 302. Chances are, his wife doesn't know, and the OP probably never gave it a thought before that night to even discuss it with her. You have to remember that those of us that frequent this forum, are not like the rest of the people. We're aware of these issues. Most people are ignorant of what a 302 is, and how it can affect you for the rest of your life. She made a mistake, and chances are, she wasn't informed by the hospital staff, probably handed her a clip board and said "sign this so we can get him the treatment he needs".

    The reason why I'm coming down hard on the divorce talk is because it's no one's business to try to interfere in the OP's marriage. It's a dick move to even suggest it, considering you know nothing about him or his wife. Answer the questions that he asked, he never asked if he should divorce his wife because of it.
    Rules are written in the stone,
    Break the rules and you get no bones,
    all you get is ridicule, laughter,
    and a trip to the house of pain.

  2. #82
    Join Date
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    Oakland Mills, Pennsylvania
    (Juniata County)
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    Default Re: PA PICS Denial and Challenge Question - Wait until you hear this one!

    Quote Originally Posted by ROCK-IT3 View Post
    Did you not read through the thread. Prepare to get dinged.
    I didn*t. I felt a prompt reply was more important.
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

  3. #83
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    (Dauphin County)
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    Default Re: PA PICS Denial and Challenge Question - Wait until you hear this one!

    Quote Originally Posted by PAMedic=F|A= View Post
    I didn*t.

    And you got dinged. Deservedly so, for the reasons Streaker already enumerated.

    I felt a prompt reply was more important.

    As if he had to make a decision on divorcing his wife in the next 5 minutes.
    My replies in red
    Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? - J.R.R. Tolkien

    http://www.compassion.com/ See how God loves children

  4. #84
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    Default Re: PA PICS Denial and Challenge Question - Wait until you hear this one!

    Quote Originally Posted by streaker69 View Post
    Something very easy to say for someone that's fully aware of the ramifications of a 302. Chances are, his wife doesn't know, and the OP probably never gave it a thought before that night to even discuss it with her. You have to remember that those of us that frequent this forum, are not like the rest of the people. We're aware of these issues. Most people are ignorant of what a 302 is, and how it can affect you for the rest of your life. She made a mistake, and chances are, she wasn't informed by the hospital staff, probably handed her a clip board and said "sign this so we can get him the treatment he needs".

    The reason why I'm coming down hard on the divorce talk is because it's no one's business to try to interfere in the OP's marriage. It's a dick move to even suggest it, considering you know nothing about him or his wife. Answer the questions that he asked, he never asked if he should divorce his wife because of it.
    Which is why I said he needed 3 lawyers.

    One is to make the doctors life hell.
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

  5. #85
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    Jul 2013
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    Mohnton, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
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    Default Re: PA PICS Denial and Challenge Question - Wait until you hear this one!

    Quote Originally Posted by PAMedic=F|A= View Post
    Which is why I said he needed 3 lawyers.

    One is to make the doctors life hell.
    Ianal but as I stated 2x earlier in this thread the doctor is immune to legal action as the legislature did not want doctors to have any personal liability curbing their decisions to 302 people. You can*t sue the doctors or hospitals even if you have proof it was not called for or was done by mistake. The form is the Involuntary commitment Itself not any actual forced detainment. Remember we didn*t and don*t argue for mental patients to retain their god given inalienable constitutionally recognized right to arms.
    The Gun is the Badge of a Free Man

  6. #86
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    Dover, Pennsylvania
    (York County)
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    Default Re: PA PICS Denial and Challenge Question - Wait until you hear this one!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunsnwater View Post
    Ianal but as I stated 2x earlier in this thread the doctor is immune to legal action as the legislature did not want doctors to have any personal liability curbing their decisions to 302 people. You can*t sue the doctors or hospitals even if you have proof it was not called for or was done by mistake. The form is the Involuntary commitment Itself not any actual forced detainment. Remember we didn*t and don*t argue for mental patients to retain their god given inalienable constitutionally recognized right to arms.
    But is one suing the doctor and hospital for filing a 302, or is he suing them for failing to keep and process the correct rescinding paperwork, which ultimately cost him money and led to his rights being violated? The hospital has not only an obligation to file a 302, but an obligation to maintain proper records in an event like this.
    Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God.

  7. #87
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    May 2007
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    Broomall, Pennsylvania
    (Delaware County)
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    Default Re: PA PICS Denial and Challenge Question - Wait until you hear this one!

    Quote Originally Posted by edb4164 View Post
    Hi all,

    So I have a question for anyone that is looking to provide input.

    I went to purchase a firearm (have a bunch already and also have a PA CWP) last week and to my complete surprise the PICS check came back denied. I immediately filed a challenge form the next morning and called the State Police a day later. The State Police informed me that there is a Section 302 Involuntary Committal on my mental heal record with them and this is what is denying my 2nd amendment right.

    In July of this year I went to the ER for an non-mental issue and after I wasn't receiving the care I wanted, I decided to try and leave. My wife was with me at the time and made a large production out of me wanting to leave early. I ended up getting into a heated argument with the ER doctor (no threats or anything of the sort). The doctor pulled my wife to the side and said "if you want him to stay here, I have some paperwork you can fill out and he will be ordered by law to stay". Low and behold, my wife filled out the paperwork having no idea it was a section 302 commitment. A few hours went by and a mental health practitioner came in and did a mental health evaluation. After we had seen what the paperwork was for (section 302) my wife rescinded it IMMEDIATELY.

    When a section 302 is filed and then rescinded at the request of the person who filed it, my wife in this instance, the local county psychiatrist/delegate and ALSO the current ER doctor must sign off on it to be rescinded. All was done successfully and I went home a few hours later under the care of my wife.

    Long story short, the State Police have on file that I WAS involuntarily committed, even though I was not. The gentleman I spoke to on the phone did not believe me of course and told me to call the county and the hospital who filed it (he gave me that information after pushing pretty hard). I called these facilities and NONE OF THEM have ANY RECORD on file.

    So, at this point I am at a loss of what to do. I called the PICS Challenge unit again, spoke to the same person about it and explained that none of these organizations have anything on file, whatsoever. He said "wait until the challenge form comes back". However, I believe that simply shows 'why' they declined my application.

    Does anyone have any advice here? The person I spoke to at the PSP Challenge unit said they do investigate matters like this but it can take up to 60 days, which in my opinion, because of INACCURATE records, is simply way too long.

    Any advice, comments or feedback is GREATLY appreciated!

    Thank you!

    Ed, there's a thread just below this one, "My 5 year 302 battle....", that I hope you've seen. I'm sure the details are different from yours but it is a good insight to the nature of the beast. It clearly shows to what ends the PSP will go to to keep a 302 owner in the prohibited category. Proceed carefully here as improper action or inaction may seal your fate. All the best wishes for a good resolution.

    Bbo D
    Last edited by bug; September 30th, 2020 at 09:47 AM. Reason: typo

  8. #88
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    Aug 2013
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    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: PA PICS Denial and Challenge Question - Wait until you hear this one!

    Quote Originally Posted by bug View Post
    Ed, there's a thread just below this one, "My 5 year 302 battle....", that I hope you've seen. I'm sure the details are different from yours but it is agood insight to the nature of the beast. It's clearly shows what ends the PSP will go to to keep a 302 owner in the prohibited category. Proceed carefully here as improper action or inaction may seal your fate. All the best wishes for a good resolution.

    Bbo D


    go here

    https://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=365429

  9. #89
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    Jan 2013
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    Oakland Mills, Pennsylvania
    (Juniata County)
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    Default Re: PA PICS Denial and Challenge Question - Wait until you hear this one!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunsnwater View Post
    Ianal but as I stated 2x earlier in this thread the doctor is immune to legal action as the legislature did not want doctors to have any personal liability curbing their decisions to 302 people. You can*t sue the doctors or hospitals even if you have proof it was not called for or was done by mistake. The form is the Involuntary commitment Itself not any actual forced detainment. Remember we didn*t and don*t argue for mental patients to retain their god given inalienable constitutionally recognized right to arms.
    A 302 is a forced detainment, no different then an arrest. You can not leave, and if you try to do so, force, up to and including the same force (lethal) which would be used to keep you from walking out of a jail will be used.


    And I do. If a person is so dangerous due to mental incapacity that they can not have arms, they*re simply to dangerous to be in public at all, and require inpatient treatment until cured.

    As to suing; if it went as the OP stated, it is gross malpractice. Which is why the doctor tried to cover his ass and have the wife sign it, instead of doing it himself. If the OP*s wife can articulate that she was mislead by the physician and did not give informed consent because he failed to properly education her and or mislead her about the legal ramifications; His actions show a deliberate effort to *shift blame* and *cover up his illegal actions and malpractice*.
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

  10. #90
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    Default Re: PA PICS Denial and Challenge Question - Wait until you hear this one!

    This maybe helpful. It is a high bar, but they do not have blanket immunity. Likewise, the preceding section says drugs or alcohol are prohibited from being grounds for a 302.

    https://www.pitt.edu/~kconover/ftp/302-text.pdf

    immunity from civil and criminal liability.
    (a)
    , a county administrator, a director of a
    facility, , a peace officer or any other
    who participates in a decision that a person be examined or treated under this act, or that a
    person be discharged, or placed under partial hospitalization, outpatient care or leave of absence, or that the restraint upon such person be otherwise reduced, or a county administrator or other authorized person who denies an application for voluntary treatment or for involuntary emergency examination and treatment,
    (b) A judge or a mental health review officer shall not be civilly or criminally liable for any actions taken or decisions made by him pursuant to the authority conferred by this act.
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

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