5 Teens, 9 Men Charged In Major Bucks Co. Gun Trafficking Bust

[Royinmontco]

How is this not a registry of firearm owners in PA then? They have every piece of info they need for it to be...name, address, SSN, make/model of the firearm purchased, serial number of said purchase...and it*s been struck down as legal? :wtf: I*m aware the 4113 carries for 20 years on paper with the FFL and the ATF but how is it legal for PA to put this stuff in A database?

This doesn*t apply to long guns in PA correct? Only handguns? From my transfers yesterday I*m to understand they don*t follow long gun purchase in PA due to not needing the extra form filled out that handguns require?

The rationale is that since they don't have a record of ALL of the handguns (like those carried in from people that move here, those polymer 80's, etc..), and there is no requirement to "register" those... that the "record of sale" database isn't a registry.... it's simply a "list of guns that people bought".

[HanzMcFeely]

The rationale is that since they don't have a record of ALL of the handguns (like those carried in from people that move here, those polymer 80's, etc..), and there is no requirement to "register" those... that the "record of sale" database isn't a registry.... it's simply a "list of guns that people bought".

That’s bullshit... once again legitimate PA Handgun owners get shafted. Flawed logic

[wew3]

That's the federal required for NICS (not PICS) information. All the information (pen and ink) is still at a FFL somewhere and stays there for a minimum of 20 years. The SP4-113 (Application/Record of Sale) for handguns and a few other firearms is put into a "sales" database. Right now the PSP is about 16-18 months backlogged in getting the paper copy transcribed into the database.

The Record of Sale is a state requirement as spelled out in Section 6111 of the Uniform Firearms Act (bold is mine).

As I recall, the ruling hinged on 2 things:

1. The PSP destroyed the paper copy (but it looks to me that the law also prohibits an electronic copy).

2. The ERS is not a registry because it is not complete as it does not include firearms a person has obtained outside of an FFL transfer.


I don't know how we lost that case.

Bill




(b) Duty of seller.--No licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer shall sell or deliver any firearm to another person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer or licensed collector, until the conditions of subsection (a) have been satisfied and until he has:

(1) For purposes of a firearm as defined in section 6102 (relating to definitions), obtained a completed application/record of sale from the potential buyer or transferee to be filled out in triplicate, the original copy to be sent to the Pennsylvania State Police, postmarked via first class mail, within 14 days of the sale, one copy to be retained by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer for a period of 20 years and one copy to be provided to the purchaser or transferee. The form of this application/record of sale shall be no more than one page in length and shall be promulgated by the Pennsylvania State Police and provided by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer. The application/record of sale shall include the name, address, birthdate, gender, race, physical description and Social Security number of the purchaser or transferee, the date of the application and the caliber, length of barrel, make, model and manufacturer's number of the firearm to be purchased or transferred. The application/record of sale shall also contain the following question:

Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s), as defined under 18 Pa.C.S. § 6102 (relating to definitions), listed on this application/record of sale? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person, unless you are legitimately acquiring the firearm as a gift for any of the following individuals who are legally eligible to own a firearm:

(1) spouse;

(2) parent;

(3) child;

(4) grandparent; or

(5) grandchild.


(v) Unless it has been discovered pursuant to a criminal history, juvenile delinquency and mental health records background check that the potential purchaser or transferee is prohibited from possessing a firearm pursuant to section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms), no information on the application/record of sale provided pursuant to this subsection shall be retained as precluded by section 6111.4 (relating to registration of firearms) by the Pennsylvania State Police either through retention of the application/record of sale or by entering the information onto a computer, and, further, an application/record of sale received by the Pennsylvania State Police pursuant to this subsection shall be destroyed within 72 hours of the completion of the criminal history, juvenile delinquency and mental health records background check.

[Pag23]

I see the Indian Mafia is up to no good again....

[JenniferG]

I thought the registration scheme and PICS implemented by the PSP was to prevent all of this from happening. Gun control never works and only hurts the law abiding citizens. Not long ago I purchased a shotgun from Tanners and was put into research for about 4 hours. I had just renewed my LTCF in less than 15 minutes only a month or two before that. PSP approvers are an enigma to freedom. When did it become OK for the government to approve the exercise a Constitutional recognized right? This is why we are on the verge of losing the country to communism using a complete dope as their puppet.

[firemanmark]

I thought the registration scheme and PICS implemented by the PSP was to prevent all of this from happening. Gun control never works and only hurts the law abiding citizens. Not long ago I purchased a shotgun from Tanners and was put into research for about 4 hours. I had just renewed my LTCF in less than 15 minutes only a month or two before that. PSP approvers are an enigma to freedom. When did it become OK for the government to approve the exercise a Constitutional recognized right? This is why we are on the verge of losing the country to communism using a complete dope as their puppet.

All I have to say is I would much rather clear an issue like an improper denial up with the PICS system vs NICS. Those who support abolishing PICS need be careful what they wish for.

[JenniferG]

All I have to say is I would much rather clear an issue like an improper denial up with the PICS system vs NICS. Those who support abolishing PICS need be careful what they wish for.

Why is there a need for either is my whole point. Asking the government to approve of your rights isn't how the Constitution was setup to work.

[HanzMcFeely]

I thought the registration scheme and PICS implemented by the PSP was to prevent all of this from happening. Gun control never works and only hurts the law abiding citizens. Not long ago I purchased a shotgun from Tanners and was put into research for about 4 hours. I had just renewed my LTCF in less than 15 minutes only a month or two before that. PSP approvers are an enigma to freedom. When did it become OK for the government to approve the exercise a Constitutional recognized right? This is why we are on the verge of losing the country to communism using a complete dope as their puppet.

I get your frustration with the “research” status: I deal with it Almost every time. it started 5 years ago when I renewed my LTCF and purchased a new carry gun. Sat in research for a week. Traded that in to buy a Sig p250, Research for 3 days. Sold the Sig, and 6 months later bought/transferred my Glock 17 from my sister, in and out in 20 min. Bought an lcr9 in April, out of the store in an hour and 15 min (PICS was backed up), no research. Taurus G2S I traded the LCR for in June? Research for 10 DAYS! Ever since April all but one of my transfers has gone into research (ironically enough the heritage 22lr/mag went thru no problems, first time doing the 4113 electronically). LTCF renewal in August went thru with no problems at all. Even my long guns yesterday went into research/“pending” for an hour and a half. No denials or challenge forms, and the PSP hasn’t shown up to arrest me In the store for purchasing so I haven’t really been concerned With it...

I spoke to PSP back in June about this and basically was told it has to do with common names. Multiple FFL’s have told me the same thing. Spoke to a lawyer and was told there’s not much I can do.

The sergeant in the firearms unit I spoke with in June also told me “I can see what it is that’s holding it up but I can’t tell you”. Which makes me a bit curious and makes me wonder. There’s nothing on my record that disqualifies me from owning a firearm, yet I still get stuck in research.

I’m at the point now where I’m considering just getting my Class III and/or a uPIN from THE feds and telling them to call it in when I purchase so I can be done with it all.

[Delkal]

I get your frustration with the *research* status: I deal with it Almost every time. it started 5 years ago when I renewed my LTCF and purchased a new carry gun. Sat in research for a week. Traded that in to buy a Sig p250, Research for 3 days. Sold the Sig, and 6 months later bought/transferred my Glock 17 from my sister, in and out in 20 min. Bought an lcr9 in April, out of the store in an hour and 15 min (PICS was backed up), no research. Taurus G2S I traded the LCR for in June? Research for 10 DAYS! Ever since April all but one of my transfers has gone into research (ironically enough the heritage 22lr/mag went thru no problems, first time doing the 4113 electronically). LTCF renewal in August went thru with no problems at all. Even my long guns yesterday went into research/*pending* for an hour and a half. No denials or challenge forms, and the PSP hasn*t shown up to arrest me In the store for purchasing so I haven*t really been concerned With it...

I spoke to PSP back in June about this and basically was told it has to do with common names. Multiple FFL*s have told me the same thing. Spoke to a lawyer and was told there*s not much I can do.

The sergeant in the firearms unit I spoke with in June also told me *I can see what it is that*s holding it up but I can*t tell you*. Which makes me a bit curious and makes me wonder. There*s nothing on my record that disqualifies me from owning a firearm, yet I still get stuck in research.

I*m at the point now where I*m considering just getting my Class III and/or a uPIN from THE feds and telling them to call it in when I purchase so I can be done with it all.

Do you leave the social security number box blank? I wouldn't put my whole number in but usually include the last 4 digits. I was never on hold and I don't have a common name but i am wondering if it will help.

[PAMedic=F|A=]

I get your frustration with the *research* status: I deal with it Almost every time. it started 5 years ago when I renewed my LTCF and purchased a new carry gun. Sat in research for a week. Traded that in to buy a Sig p250, Research for 3 days. Sold the Sig, and 6 months later bought/transferred my Glock 17 from my sister, in and out in 20 min. Bought an lcr9 in April, out of the store in an hour and 15 min (PICS was backed up), no research. Taurus G2S I traded the LCR for in June? Research for 10 DAYS! Ever since April all but one of my transfers has gone into research (ironically enough the heritage 22lr/mag went thru no problems, first time doing the 4113 electronically). LTCF renewal in August went thru with no problems at all. Even my long guns yesterday went into research/*pending* for an hour and a half. No denials or challenge forms, and the PSP hasn*t shown up to arrest me In the store for purchasing so I haven*t really been concerned With it...

I spoke to PSP back in June about this and basically was told it has to do with common names. Multiple FFL*s have told me the same thing. Spoke to a lawyer and was told there*s not much I can do.

The sergeant in the firearms unit I spoke with in June also told me *I can see what it is that*s holding it up but I can*t tell you*. Which makes me a bit curious and makes me wonder. There*s nothing on my record that disqualifies me from owning a firearm, yet I still get stuck in research.

I*m at the point now where I*m considering just getting my Class III and/or a uPIN from THE feds and telling them to call it in when I purchase so I can be done with it all.

There is a process for getting a unique ID from the state which might help, if the problem is a common name or something like it.