Troopers shoot and kill man in Monroe County

[Emptymag]

You are probably correct about her being shot if the police were the ones taking incoming rounds.

[Daycrawler]

The worst part of this story is that the daughter, doesnt have a key to her elderly mothers house. They should have knocked on every door and window. Maybe they did and it was left out, IDK. Never forget the 7 P's.

Interestingly, this was on my FB feed today:

It has taken me a little time to write this as it took many of us a few days to fully wrap our heads around, digest, filter, process and learn and I wanted to write more so for the learning process than out of emotion. This excerpt is also not written for pitty or for those of you that know better or would do something different. Save the keyboard warrior battles for something else.

I manage this page for our firehouse and try to include all three shifts but today I am writing strictly through the eyes of one shift. However, as we should be in the world today, we are one at Firehouse 30 and all three shifts were all shaken by this incident....

On 6/25, we nearly lost our engine crew.

Not to a raging three alarm fire or on the highway working an entrapment. It was a typical EMS alarm that we run frequently. Not a fight in progress or a shooting or a violent situation. A simple "well being" check.

Engine 30 was dispatched to check on the caller's mother whom she had not heard from in 4 days. Run of the mill "well being" check. A run that we answer as a department probably once a shift. The Lieutenant is a seasoned member of the department and Firehouse 30 with accolades for service and credit and experience of being in one of the busiest engine companies in the County. The engineer, also seasoned, serving most of her 22 year career at firehouse 30. No doubt one of the best. The left jump, a 4 year firefighter followed by a probationary firefighter with 2 weeks on the job. Enroute to the alarm, protocol was followed. The deputies were notified to respond.

The members found the home and attempted to see anyone inside. Newspaper and mail stacked up. All too quiet. They checked for any unsecured opening. The daughter, who was on scene, reported that "mom" never leaves the house and the members were given full permission to enter the home anyway they could. An unlocked window was found on the backside of the home and the split decision was made to make entry as sometimes it may take a deputy a decent amount of time to respond and arrive on scene. Both firefighters entered the window all the while screaming "Fire department!" as loud as a Probie in fire school. Three steps into the home-they encountered an elderly woman coming at them with a .38 handgun.

The Probie attempted to run to the exterior door but was met with a locked door that would even give a decent truckie a run for his money. He dove into the corner in an attempt to hide as the lady fired off a round. The other firefighter dove back out of the window and into the yard as another round was fired at him. At this time the Lieutenant hailed our radio operator with "shots fired, shots fired-possible firefighter down!" The lieutenant looked back into the window to help the Probie and saw the lady with her gun pointed straight at him as he kneeled in the corner. The lieutenant screamed for the lady to distract her and as she turned she fired another shot at the window. She quickly retreated and the lieutenant realized the distraction and summoned the Probie to the window where he was extricated to safety.

The rest of firehouse 30 and any uniform in the vicinity dumped onto the scene within minutes upon hearing "shots fired" to assist. I'm not sure if there is a description of the emotion I felt when we arrived and all of the members were accounted for without any injuries. Lots of hugs were given. Lots of recollections traded. I always try to count my blessings but that day I counted a lot. Even the way the Probie smiles lol. We were lucky.

The lady was 3/4 deaf and had several break-ins. She was older and only acting in the fear of being alone and self defense. She still used a rotary phone which was unplugged due to extensive solicitation calls. She felt terrible when the story was explained to her. Nothing was done incorrectly as we will always err on the side of the patient and we act under implied consent. Again, we were lucky.

As company officers and firefighters alike, we are trained to make split decisions. Don't let this story change your tactic but instead give you another view. No two calls are alike-including "well being checks". Keep your head on a swivel out there. Love your crew. Train, train, train. Expect the unexpected and have a plan. Be safe out there....

Pics below are window entered and door encountered from the inside....

[streaker69]

Having been on many of these kinds of calls, I can assure you that whether or not it was explicitly spelled out in the facebook post, walking up to the door and knocking would have been the very first thing done.

To think that they would simply have shown up, looked around and then decided to go in through an unsecured window is quite frankly absurd.

It's interesting the level of detail in the post, but no mention of knocking on the door. But you know, I'm sure that they followed their procedure to a T, because they'd never do something contrary to that, right?

I wouldn't fault the old woman either. It would have been an unfortunate confluence of circumstances.

At the same time, I wouldn't fault the cop for defending himself when confronted by the gun wielding homeowner. That too would have been an unfortunate confluence of circumstances.

Yeah, good for the cop shooting a home owner, in their own home, after they came in through a window. That's the kind of serving and protecting we need because at least the cop got to go home safe that night, and that old lady was just a threat that needed to be neutralized. Maybe next they can start shooting people from outside their home after they scream an order and then shoot before the person can process what just happened.

Oh wait, that's already happened, when they arrived for a welfare check, didn't knock on the OPEN door, never yelled out "police" instead started snooping around and then shot the homeowner through the window. Yup, followed procedure to a T.

[PA86]

It's interesting the level of detail in the post, but no mention of knocking on the door. But you know, I'm sure that they followed their procedure to a T, because they'd never do something contrary to that, right?

If you want to believe that the fire department showed up, had the daughter on scene, and then for some bizarre and entirely inexplicable reason decided to go in through an unlocked window without first knocking on the door, be my guest.

Its entirely irrational, but believe what you want.

Yeah, good for the cop shooting a home owner, in their own home, after they came in through a window.

That's the kind of serving and protecting we need because at least the cop got to go home safe that night, and that old lady was just a threat that needed to be neutralized. Maybe next they can start shooting people from outside their home after they scream an order and then shoot before the person can process what just happened.

Oh wait, that's already happened, when they arrived for a welfare check, didn't knock on the OPEN door, never yelled out "police" instead started snooping around and then shot the homeowner through the window. Yup, followed procedure to a T.

Sounds like you're bringing a lot of emotional baggage to this discussion. Doesn't seem like you're really able to view or discuss it objectively.

Have a good day.

[streaker69]

If you want to believe that the fire department showed up, had the daughter on scene, and then for some bizarre and entirely inexplicable reason decided to go in through an unlocked window without first knocking on the door, be my guest.

Its entirely irrational, but believe what you want.

No, I just find it interesting that someone writes a story in such detail but leaves an important one out. First Responders, believe it or not, are human, and make mistakes, and have been shown to not follow policy. Did they yell through the window they opened before entering it? That part isn't in there either, they entered, then yelled. But hey, at least we got to hear about probies and truckies, and not actual real details in their story. I guess the old lady also had the stealth ability of a cat that they never heard her moving around after they entered.

Sounds like you're bringing a lot of emotional baggage to this discussion. Doesn't seem like you're really able to view or discuss it objectively.

Have a good day.

You're still a dismissive sot, aren't you? Gee, anyone that happens to counter you, you dismiss them. Even though there's evidence of first responders not following procedure and killing innocent people in their own homes.

Let's examine their claimed details:

The members found the home and attempted to see anyone inside. Newspaper and mail stacked up. All too quiet. They checked for any unsecured opening. The daughter, who was on scene, reported that "mom" never leaves the house and the members were given full permission to enter the home anyway they could. An unlocked window was found on the backside of the home and the split decision was made to make entry as sometimes it may take a deputy a decent amount of time to respond and arrive on scene. Both firefighters entered the window all the while screaming "Fire department!" as loud as a Probie in fire school. Three steps into the home-they encountered an elderly woman coming at them with a .38 handgun.

"a split second decision" Did they need to make a split second decision? She already hadn't been heard from for 4 days, if she was dead, there wasn't any need to make a split second decision. They could have easily yelled through the open window, and waited, quietly, to listen if they could hear a cry for help or any other noise. I doubt the old lady move with all the stealth of a cat, and they wouldn't have heard her coming down the hallway from where ever she was.

Instead they made that split second decision and came through the window, putting themselves in danger. Apparently she was nearby since they only got 3 steps into the home before they encountered her. So obviously she heard the yelling. Maybe some forethought should be given before climbing in and then yelling. Not using some common sense could have possibly gotten themselves killed, or her killed had it been a cop on the scene.

But hey, what the fuck do I know, I'm not a highly trained first responder following the procedure to a T. Entering someone's home that isn't on fire, shouldn't be a split second decision, especially since they all probably thought she was already dead due to the reported circumstances.

[ett]

No, I just find it interesting that someone writes a story in such detail but leaves an important one out. First Responders, believe it or not, are human, and make mistakes, and have been shown to not follow policy. Did they yell through the window they opened before entering it? That part isn't in there either, they entered, then yelled. But hey, at least we got to hear about probies and truckies, and not actual real details in their story. I guess the old lady also had the stealth ability of a cat that they never heard her moving around after they entered.



You're still a dismissive sot, aren't you? Gee, anyone that happens to counter you, you dismiss them. Even though there's evidence of first responders not following procedure and killing innocent people in their own homes.

Let's examine their claimed details:



"a split second decision" Did they need to make a split second decision? She already hadn't been heard from for 4 days, if she was dead, there wasn't any need to make a split second decision. They could have easily yelled through the open window, and waited, quietly, to listen if they could hear a cry for help or any other noise. I doubt the old lady move with all the stealth of a cat, and they wouldn't have heard her coming down the hallway from where ever she was.

Instead they made that split second decision and came through the window, putting themselves in danger. Apparently she was nearby since they only got 3 steps into the home before they encountered her. So obviously she heard the yelling. Maybe some forethought should be given before climbing in and then yelling. Not using some common sense could have possibly gotten themselves killed, or her killed had it been a cop on the scene.

But hey, what the fuck do I know, I'm not a highly trained first responder following the procedure to a T. Entering someone's home that isn't on fire, shouldn't be a split second decision, especially since they all probably thought she was already dead due to the reported circumstances.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to streaker69 again."

A great many fire departments are volunteer.
I grew up with the type of people who join those volunteer fire departments.
And frankly; most of them are just a bunch of dumb hicks.
They WOULD be the type to break in through a window before knocking on the front door.

Edit to add:
They are also to type to not bother to ask whomever called them; if they bothered to knock on the door before calling the fire department.

[streaker69]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to streaker69 again."

A great many fire departments are volunteer.
I grew up with the type of people who join those volunteer fire departments.
And frankly; most of them are just a bunch of dumb hicks.
They WOULD be the type to break in through a window before knocking on the front door.

Edit to add:
They are also to type to not bother to ask whomever called them; if they bothered to knock on the door before calling the fire department.

A lot of VFD guys are also adrenaline junkies and will seek out getting that fix. Making that split second decision to find that dead body before anyone else is far more exciting than knocking on the door and waiting for the old lady to answer. I'm guessing these guys got the adrenaline dump that they weren't expecting.

[Walleye Hunter]

Knock, knock: We're here for a welfare check
Old woman: I'm not on welfare and don't have it, go fish.

[ImminentDanger]

Does the standard protocol involve interviewing the requester as to the condition of the person to be checked?
If so, why didn't they know she was 3/4 deaf? And had previous breakins or incidents?
Did they use their Paging System on the trucks/vehicles to broadcast a request for entry?

How much information did they obtain from the daughter to prevent facing an unknown situation?
Did they explain to the daughter that their responding may put themselves at risk & her mother as well?


Many confrontations with police or other governmental agencies are precipitated by the 'POWER' mentality of the responders. They believe they have ULTIMATE POWER over any situation and any person involved MUST OBEY! Were they taught that THEY ARE PUBLIC SERVANTS, NOT PUBLIC MASTERS? Or were they taught to TAKE CONTROL OF THE SITUATION, no matter what RIGHTS they violate?

I support the police (and other governmental agents) as PUBLIC SERVANTS - but they need to be trained properly to RESPECT THE RIGHTS OF THE PEOPLE who they are supposed to be serving!

...

[gnbrotz]

The daughter was ON SCENE. A window was found unlocked. Why didn't the daughter go in?

IMO, if the daughter is not on title, she has no legal authority to authorize ANYONE to enter. Likewise, she really has no authority to enter herself, but if she's willing to "allow" someone else to enter, why wouldn't she just go in herself?

Just another example of everyone expecting the government to take care of them, and anyone they deem in need of "help", regardless of the facts. And on the other hand, the government acting because "just in case/what if", instead of facts.

If y'all notice one day you haven't heard from me or seen me for a while......go about your life and leave me the fuck alone!