Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default LTCF application deleted --- no reference information --- Montgomery County

    I just received an email stating that my LTCF application (not renewal) to the Montgomery County Sheriff's office was deleted (submitted via email) because I did not provide reference information. Has anyone recently received a LTCF from Montco without providing this information?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: LTCF application deleted --- no reference information --- Montgomery County

    I would advise you to file an appeal. Use the email as proof of having submitted the application. There may be time limits to meet. Their failing to take action on your app is an action and can be appealed

  3. #3
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    Mohnton, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
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    Default Re: LTCF application deleted --- no reference information --- Montgomery County

    Listen to him the clock is ticking and you’ll soon have to wait a year. Engage with a lawyer. Don’t screw around.
    The Gun is the Badge of a Free Man

  4. #4
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    Default Re: LTCF application deleted --- no reference information --- Montgomery County

    Contact Phil Kline (gunlawyer001) very active on the forum Lawyer.

    Or Joshua Prince (Sigforlife) less active in the forum. Lawyer.


    It is illegal not to accept an application. They can only approve or deny.

    As I understand it (not a lawyer), a spot for references is on the forum, but not required by law. Contacting them in any case is illegal. Many counties tell people not to fill it out, or even totally blank out that section.

    Get. The. Lawyer.
    Last edited by PAMedic=F|A=; April 27th, 2020 at 09:37 AM.
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

  5. #5
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    Brookville, Pennsylvania
    (Jefferson County)
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    Default Re: LTCF application deleted --- no reference information --- Montgomery County

    Quote Originally Posted by PAMedic=F|A= View Post
    Contact Phil Kline (gunlawyer001) very active on the forum Lawyer.

    Or Joshua Prince (Sigforlife) less active in the forum. Lawyer.


    It is illegal not to accept an application. They can only approve or deny.

    As I understand it (not a lawyer), a spot for references is on the forum, but not required by law. Contacting them in any case is illegal. Many counties tell people not to fill it out, or even totally blank out that section.

    Get. The. Lawyer.
    The PSP were given the authority to create the form, which they placed a spot for references. The only county that legally doesn't require references is the one that agreed to that in a court case. The rest can require references if they desire or as a formality.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot, R.W.J., PennsyPlinker, Statkowski, Deanimator, roland, aubie515

    Don't end up in my signature!

  6. #6
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    Default Re: LTCF application deleted --- no reference information --- Montgomery County

    Quote Originally Posted by PAMedic=F|A= View Post
    It is illegal not to accept an application. They can only approve or deny.
    Finally, they're doing it to residents too. Not that I want you guys to suffer, but this whole "refusing to accept applications" business needs to be ended, and it ain't gonna happen so long as they only do it to non-residents.

    Not surprising. Was only a matter of time before they started doing this to everyone.

  7. #7
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    Southeastern, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: LTCF application deleted --- no reference information --- Montgomery County

    Thanks for the feedback. Lot's to chew on.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: LTCF application deleted --- no reference information --- Montgomery County

    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    The PSP were given the authority to create the form, which they placed a spot for references. The only county that legally doesn't require references is the one that agreed to that in a court case. The rest can require references if they desire or as a formality.
    Except that the reason they agreed was it was successfully argued to be an unlawful disclosure of LTCF information. And that county had a stronger case for being able to demand references, because they have statutory Investigative power, which a sheriffs department (except Allegheny county) does not so the perfectly valid issue of the sheriff actiNG illegally and law enforcement and conducting an investigation never came up.

    They could I suppose under your argument, deny the application, but they can’t just delete it.
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

  9. #9
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    Pennsyltucky, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: LTCF application deleted --- no reference information --- Montgomery County

    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    The PSP were given the authority to create the form, which they placed a spot for references. The only county that legally doesn't require references is the one that agreed to that in a court case. The rest can require references if they desire or as a formality.
    This.

    Unless the sheriff specifically states that references are not required it's best to complete the form. If you feel your references will be rejected due to unlawful requirements (ie in county or in state references) you will at least be able to argue the form was completed as lawfully required. You didn't complete the form.

    ETA:
    Just reapply. You weren't denied.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
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    Brookville, Pennsylvania
    (Jefferson County)
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    Default Re: LTCF application deleted --- no reference information --- Montgomery County

    Quote Originally Posted by PAMedic=F|A= View Post
    Except that the reason they agreed was it was successfully argued to be an unlawful disclosure of LTCF information. And that county had a stronger case for being able to demand references, because they have statutory Investigative power, which a sheriffs department (except Allegheny county) does not so the perfectly valid issue of the sheriff actiNG illegally and law enforcement and conducting an investigation never came up.

    They could I suppose under your argument, deny the application, but they can’t just delete it.

    What happened there was that the court got bullshitted. And the outcome of that case only pertains to that specific county because it was a mutually agreed upon settlement.

    Sheriffs are empowered to investigate the character of an applicant, see 18.61.6109. There is a way for sheriffs to word their inquiries to the references in order to find out if the applicant is of good character without disclosure. Then besides that, it could EASILY be construed that the applicant authorized any disclosure to the listed references by solely for the fact that he/she listed them, and that there would be an implied consent. And the likeliness that the applicant himself/herself conferred with the references for their authorization to be contacted.

    Sheriffs do not have investigative powers for CRIMINAL investigations. There is a difference.

    This is one argument that you DO NOT want the PA Superior or Supreme court to rule on because if this got challenged, the high courts will side with it as a requirement.

    So, if a sheriff wants references, I would list them.

    As for the deletion of the application, it is probably better that it was deleted. An official denial would require the applicant to wait 1 year.
    Last edited by knight0334; April 28th, 2020 at 03:09 PM. Reason: typo
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot, R.W.J., PennsyPlinker, Statkowski, Deanimator, roland, aubie515

    Don't end up in my signature!

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